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Connor Lynch





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PostPosted: Mon 02 Aug, 2010 8:55 pm    Post subject: Was the burgonet worn with Maximilian armor         Reply with quote

I usually see Maximilian armor with some sort of fluted close helmet but i also see a burgonet with the armor and i always thought that the burgonet was first used open for demi-lancers and now i found out that burgonet were used in some of the first years of the 16th century does this mean that the demi lancer and the knight with this armor exist at the same time?
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Connor,
Increasingly in the 16th century, harnesses were often meant to include many pieces so that the wearer could configure it for the joust, foot combat in the lists, heavy cavalry battlefield use, lighter use (demi-lancer or something). These were called garnitures and often included multiple breastplates, helms, and other pieces (called pieces of exchange).

Now, I don't know of many (if any) Maximilian garnitures, but that was becoming popular at the time.

So an armour wearer, whether a knight or not, may have had multiple helmets and would configure himself based on his role on the battlefield.

Again, I suggest you spend a few dollars and buy a general armour reference so you can see the development and contexts of armour. It will get you farther than random forum posts. Happy Books are where many of us got our first info and are important parts of our collections.

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Connor Lynch





Joined: 27 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok but Maximilian armor was gone by 1525 so wouldnt the burgonet use come after that armor with the demi lancer? i looked up garniture found nothing and is the garniture the same thing as a knight?
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James Head





Joined: 09 Mar 2008

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Connor. I second Chad's suggestion that you get your hands on some quality books about arms and armor. Searching the internet is not the best way to get reliable and complete information. If you keep posting a plethora of questions all over the forum it will eventually get to the point where people will stop responding. By the way, where did you get the date 1525 as the end of Maximillian armor?
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Connor Lynch





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i got it from wikipedia why when did it really end?
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 9:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Connor Lynch wrote:
i got it from wikipedia why when did it really end?


Mhm, well, vikipedia is not really the most reliable source of information around - as Chad suggested, you ought to look up books for your general education on armour related matters - on this very site you can find plenty of suggestions as to which books to get and that will answer majority of your basic questions.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Connor Lynch wrote:
i got it from wikipedia why when did it really end?


As you've been told on multiple occasions already on myArmoury.com, there are no hard and set times when one thing "ends" and another "begins". Things developed over time and across many parts of the world all at once. Items were being created and distributed across Europe and passed around organically. Some items slowly declined while others never took off and got widely popular.

The analogy I can use is to say, "When did people stop wearing hippie platform boots?" The answer is that "Most people stopped in the early 70s but these boots transitioned into another platform style and were worn throughout the 70s when they, for the most part, stopped being used. People still today wear them, however, and they likely will be found for many years to come."

Things don't just start and stop. They develop over time and migrate through regions and this migration causes further localized development and trending. When something stops being seen in one area, this does not necessarily mean it's not seen in another area... or in another form. It's much more complex of an issue than "When did object X start? When did it end? When did it change into Object Y?" Etc. Etc.

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Connor Lynch





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

yes i understand i know that things slowly develope
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James Head





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This thread is getting close to deserving a Face Palm.
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James Head





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By the way, I just went to the Wikipedia article about Max armour: In one section it clearly says.

Quote:
According to an alternative version the name is related with Maximilian II as the last Maximilian Armour was made especially for him in 1557 - 17 years after it passed out of use (according to Liliane Funcken & Fred Funcken it passed out of use in 1540, but the last one was made for but the last one was made for Maximilian II).



You would have to be blind to miss this section of the article.

There is a later section that discusses that differing opinions of what Maximilian armor is. Here it says...

Quote:
Early types of this armour which has either no fluting or has wolfzähne (wolf teeth) style fluting(which differs from classic Maximilian fluting) and could be worn with sallet are separated by Oakeshott to Schott-Sonnenberg Style Armour. According to him this transitional armour was worn from 1500 to 1520 and true Maximilian armour was worn from 1515 to 1525; however some other historians do not fully separate Schott-Sonnenberg Style from Maximilian Armour.


So even Wikipedia has different dates in the article. It is important to note the difference between when a style of armor was in its 'classic' form and when it passed out of use. Is any of this making sense?
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Connor Lynch





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No i do understand im only talking about knights not the armour in general just the troops who wore them it said yes in later years they made armour just for Maximilian II but im talking about knights
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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 8:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's some advice - please don't take it personally. You will get a lot farther on this forum and in general if you use proper grammar and punctuation. Is it really that hard to do? Don't post long run-on sentences with no structure, capitalization or punctuation. It makes it easier to read if you write properly. This will increase the likelihood of getting the answers you want.

As Nathan already said, there are no hard and fast dates when certain styles of armour or weapons started or stopped being used. If you're seeking a definite date, you won't find it.

Now, I have to address this notion that the internet is some vastly flawed and inferior resource when compared to books. The truth is that books are not some infallible source of wisdom either. There are a lot of books out there with untrue information - this is simply a fact. I have many books about armour that contradict each other with terminology and historical information. And some of the most exhaustive books on armour are riddled with misinformation. (Guy Laking, for instance.) You are not guaranteed to find the right answer in books and the wrong answer on the internet, but you are more likely to find the right answers in both places if you read material from writers possessing solid credentials.

Now, about the OP's question:

Quote:
I usually see Maximilian armor with some sort of fluted close helmet but i also see a burgonet with the armor and i always thought that the burgonet was first used open for demi-lancers and now i found out that burgonet were used in some of the first years of the 16th century does this mean that the demi lancer and the knight with this armor exist at the same time?


I can't definitively answer this, but I will say I have never seen a Maximilian armour with a burgonet, nor have I ever seen a burgonet by itself which was fluted in the Maximilian style. I also cannot recall seeing any burgonets dated earlier than 1540. This doesn't mean there aren't any, only that I haven't seen them.

The most common helmet that I have seen accompanying Maximilian armour is a bellows-visored close helmet or armet. I have also seen some with "grotesque" visors made to look like human faces. I have never seen one with a burgonet.

Quote:
Ok but Maximilian armor was gone by 1525 so wouldnt the burgonet use come after that armor with the demi lancer? i looked up garniture found nothing and is the garniture the same thing as a knight?


No, a garniture is not the same thing as a knight. A garniture refers to one large set of matching armour pieces made in the same style which are interchangeable and can be put together in different combinations depending on what the wearer wanted to do. A large garniture could be set up for different kinds of combat by changing pieces. It would have (for instance) a pair of symmetrical pauldrons for fighting on foot, a set of asymmetrical pauldrons for mounted combat across a barrier, a close helmet with a high bevor and narrow vision slit and possibly a reinforcing wrapper for tilting, and another helmet with lots of vision and ventilation holes in the visor for fighting with swords or clubs on foot. Lance vamplates, shields, chaffron and saddle steels might also be part of the garniture. All of the pieces of a garniture are decorated in the same style. Here's a picture of one.


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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Aug, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

'Maximilian' burgonets are not unusual. I suspect they were mostly used on foot, by captains of infantry, but also by light cavalry. This one is in Philadelphia, I believe.


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Greg Coffman




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't tell if this is a burgonet or not.


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Connor Lynch





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PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have been looking on my own for answers and yes i found out they do wear burgonets.I also know that the close helm was not worn with Maximilian armour there is only one maximilian armour i see with a classic close helm. Its in the features if you go to Anatomy 16th century specimens. Its was made in 1558 by then that kind of armour should be gone. If im right just tell me im not so sure yet.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Connor Lynch wrote:
I have been looking on my own for answers and yes i found out they do wear burgonets.I also know that the close helm was not worn with Maximilian armour there is only one maximilian armour i see with a classic close helm. Its in the features if you go to Anatomy 16th century specimens. Its was made in 1558 by then that kind of armour should be gone. If im right just tell me im not so sure yet.


Maximilian styling can be found on a few armets, a larger number of close helmets and an odd burgonet or two.

There is no Maximilian armour in the 16th Century Anatomy of Armour article. The harness of Charles V dated to 1558 shown there is not a Maximilian harness.

Here's that harness in close-up from another of our articles:


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Connor Lynch





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PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh thats not Maximilian? huh i though it was sort of looks it oh well i guess its not
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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OK...here we go: ""Maximilian" field armor of the "Fico" group, with associated helmet, about 1525-30, with decoration, about 1805. Southern Germany (Nuremberg)"



From the Higgins Armory. This burgonet is interesting. It seems to be an early "close burgonet" with a fully enclosing lower bevor and a pointed upper bevor like the one on an armet. Does the upper half of the bevor pivot upwards? Here's a better picture:


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Connor Lynch





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PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thats really nice armour thats after the classic suits of armour with the fluted closed helmets like before.
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Connor Lynch





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PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

May i ask what does Fico group mean?
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