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Chris Holzman





Joined: 24 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2004 10:26 pm    Post subject: Olympic Fencing on NBC         Reply with quote

Gentlemen,

I thought I should bring to your attention that for the first time, NBC has decided to air some of the fencing events during the Olympics. Someone at the USFA must have finally done something right.

Currently planned for coverage:
Men's Sabre (individual) gold medal bout
Women's Sabre (individual) gold medal bout
Men's Sabre (team) gold medal bout.

We have a pretty good chance of winning a medal in the womens, and a fair-ish chance in the mens.

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Allen Johnson





Joined: 26 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Aug, 2004 2:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cool- any idea what dates?
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Chris Holzman





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PostPosted: Fri 06 Aug, 2004 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen Johnson wrote:
Cool- any idea what dates?


Courtesy http://www.nbcolympics.com:
Mens Sabre individual: Saturday August 14th 2am-4pm ET on CNBC
Womens Sabre individual: Tuesday August 17th 5pm-8pm ET on Bravo
Mens Sabre team: Wednesday August 18th 5pm-8pm ET on Bravo

n.b., they have not given specific air times yet, but merely a block of time within with several other events, plus the fencing events, will be played. supposedly they will update these blocks as the Games get closer to starting, and then constantly update the times during the games.

annoying, but the best we can get thus far.

Chris

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Chris Holzman





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Posts: 124

PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2004 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Holzman wrote:
Allen Johnson wrote:
Cool- any idea what dates?


Courtesy http://www.nbcolympics.com:
Mens Sabre individual: Saturday August 14th 2am-4pm ET on CNBC
Womens Sabre individual: Tuesday August 17th 5pm-8pm ET on Bravo
Mens Sabre team: Wednesday August 18th 5pm-8pm ET on Bravo

n.b., they have not given specific air times yet, but merely a block of time within with several other events, plus the fencing events, will be played. supposedly they will update these blocks as the Games get closer to starting, and then constantly update the times during the games.

annoying, but the best we can get thus far.

Chris



Bump!

NBC Releases show times.

Mens Sabre, 8/14, 1pm on CNBC
Womens Sabre, 8/17, 6pm on Bravo
Mens Sabre Team, 8/19, 2pm on MSNBC and 6pm on Bravo

We've got a real chance to win the womens, and maybe even take two medals in it.

All times are EASTERN.

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Stephen A. Fisher




Location: Kentucky USA
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Posts: 455

PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2004 4:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Chris
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David Quivey




Location: Davis, California
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2004 5:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

excellent, Chris - wow, one of the summer olympic sports that I'm interested will actually be shown! This is a first...
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Nate C.




Location: Palo Alto, CA
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2004 8:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can see why they chose sabre. It's the most flashy of the sport weapons. I think it would be interesting to see the pentathlon too (riding, shooting, swimming, fencing[one- touch epee], and running). Knowing me I'll be busy analyzing the technique as I watch this thing. I hope it will be good fencing (not flicking WTF?! ).

Later,

Nate C.

Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt

If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2004 8:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"I hope it will be good fencing (not flicking ). "

Good fencing died with electronic scoring.

That's coming from an old Saberist.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Stephen A. Fisher




Location: Kentucky USA
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2004 8:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
"I hope it will be good fencing (not flicking ). "

Good fencing died with electronic scoring.


I agree with you 100%.
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Chris Holzman





Joined: 24 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2004 10:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
"I hope it will be good fencing (not flicking ). "

Good fencing died with electronic scoring.

That's coming from an old Saberist.


Agreed. modern sabre basically sucks. electric scoring, except in epee, simply doesn't work well enough to give any sort of accurate picture of what is going on. Worse, directors have become more and more dependent on the box, in order to make right of way calls, which just exacerbates problems, since the box can't tell right of way from a hole in the ground.

Shockingly, the 2000 Olympic sabre event did have some things going for it: lots of very nicely made pull cuts to the wrists, and some seriously nice distance and timing work. the gold medal bout ended with one fencer making three short ballestra with countre-tierce in an attempt to pick up the others (sp) point in line, which point in line guy derobed each time, and the first fencer marched chest first into the point, for the final touch. ooooops. It was a very very beautiful action, perfectly executed.

Olympic/sport foil is pure pure trash.. epee isn't too bad, and would have shown up better on screen, but it is really really boring on TV. sabre is the only telegenic one at all.

am I impressed with sport fencing today? nope.. not hardly.. but I still enjoy fencing classically, and going to sport tournaments (and finishing in the top 8 or 10 regionally, and top 25% at NAC's (last one being in 2001). School schedule is going to screw up my fencing this year. sigh.

With women's sabre, we've got a real chance to bring home the hardware this time, so I am psyched about that. pretty girls too. Big Grin

I definitely feel your pain though Patrick. they need to bring back the good old, bad old, days. Watching Maestro give lessons is scary, because at 74 he's still incredibly dangerous, and I can only imagine how scary it must have been to face him back in the 1950's when he was at his prime.. yikes. scary scary old dude. I think going back to Radaellian sabre blades, with a digital accelerometer that would require some serious force in the cut, would be good start, as well as serious modifications to the electrical system. It's kind of fun to fence on, because there is no question as to whether a touch landed, but it can make the right of way calls really hard, when the director normally would have missed a 'barely there' touch that wouldn't have meant anything in the real world. with radaellian blades, I'd support going back to using pool cue chalk on the blades, and not scoring it unless it left a clean line on the uniform. sabre has gotten better though, overall, in the last 5 to 10 years though. not what it once was, but not the disaster its been, either.

As an afterthought, maybe I should find a sports bar saturday with several reallllly big screens, and make them turn one to the fencing. that would rock.

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS


Last edited by Chris Holzman on Wed 11 Aug, 2004 12:30 am; edited 2 times in total
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Chris Holzman





Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2004 10:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nate C. wrote:
I can see why they chose sabre. It's the most flashy of the sport weapons. I think it would be interesting to see the pentathlon too (riding, shooting, swimming, fencing[one- touch epee], and running). Knowing me I'll be busy analyzing the technique as I watch this thing. I hope it will be good fencing (not flicking WTF?! ).

Later,



I'd love to see pentathlon as well.. I worked epee with the coach of the 2000 Olympic gold medalist a couple times. amazing guy.. from Romania, thighs that had to be 35" around.. arms like tree trunks. yikes!

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 3:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Holzman wrote:
Patrick Kelly wrote:
"I hope it will be good fencing (not flicking ). "

Good fencing died with electronic scoring.

That's coming from an old Saberist.


Agreed. modern sabre basically sucks. electric scoring, except in epee, simply doesn't work well enough to give any sort of accurate picture of what is going on. Worse, directors have become more and more dependent on the box, in order to make right of way calls, which just exacerbates problems, since the box can't tell right of way from a hole in the ground.

Shockingly, the 2000 Olympic sabre event did have some things going for it: lots of very nicely made pull cuts to the wrists, and some seriously nice distance and timing work. the gold medal bout ended with one fencer making three short ballestra with countre-tierce in an attempt to pick up the others (sp) point in line, which point in line guy derobed each time, and the first fencer marched chest first into the point, for the final touch. ooooops. It was a very very beautiful action, perfectly executed.

Olympic/sport foil is pure pure trash.. epee isn't too bad, and would have shown up better on screen, but it is really really boring on TV. sabre is the only telegenic one at all.

am I impressed with sport fencing today? nope.. not hardly.. but I still enjoy fencing classically, and going to sport tournaments (and finishing in the top 8 or 10 regionally, and top 25% at NAC's (last one being in 2001). School schedule is going to screw up my fencing this year. sigh.

With women's sabre, we've got a real chance to bring home the hardware this time, so I am psyched about that. pretty girls too. Big Grin

I definitely feel your pain though Patrick. they need to bring back the good old, bad old, days. Watching Maestro give lessons is scary, because at 74 he's still incredibly dangerous, and I can only imagine how scary it must have been to face him back in the 1950's when he was at his prime.. yikes. scary scary old dude. I think going back to Radaellian sabre blades, with a digital accelerometer that would require some serious force in the cut, would be good start, as well as serious modifications to the electrical system. It's kind of fun to fence on, because there is no question as to whether a touch landed, but it can make the right of way calls really hard, when the director normally would have missed a 'barely there' touch that wouldn't have meant anything in the real world. with radaellian blades, I'd support going back to using pool cue chalk on the blades, and not scoring it unless it left a clean line on the uniform. sabre has gotten better though, overall, in the last 5 to 10 years though. not what it once was, but not the disaster its been, either.

As an afterthought, maybe I should find a sports bar saturday with several reallllly big screens, and make them turn one to the fencing. that would rock.


I remember, back in the day, watching foilists whip at each other and thinking how degenerated foil had become due to the electronic equipment. Epee wasn't much better. (poke at the hand, poke at the hand) They had just started to experiment with Elec. Sabre when I had to hang up my mask for good. I was glad that I never had to deal with it. I used to pride myself on my technique, and usually finished in the top 4-5 regoinally every year. I used to drive down to Wichita while I was in college and take lessons from a Maestro there, can't remember his name. He was impressive, of course that's why he wore the black.

It used to be about clean technique and execution, and to be honest, a bit of force in Sabre (I saw blood drawn a few times when things got "sporty"). Sabre used to be a lot of fun to watch due to the dynamic action and technique. Sometimes I feel like a dinosaur when I see fencing now. I'm from the days of sweating your a** off in an unairconditioned salle and "hit him harder so the judges see it." Good times Wink

There used to be a saying, "Everyone fences foil, the educated fence epee, and the insane fence sabre." Big Grin

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Chris Holzman





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Posts: 124

PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:

I remember, back in the day, watching foilists whip at each other and thinking how degenerated foil had become due to the electronic equipment. Epee wasn't much better. (poke at the hand, poke at the hand) They had just started to experiment with Elec. Sabre when I had to hang up my mask for good. I was glad that I never had to deal with it. I used to pride myself on my technique, and usually finished in the top 4-5 regoinally every year. I used to drive down to Wichita while I was in college and take lessons from a Maestro there, can't remember his name. He was impressive, of course that's why he wore the black.

It used to be about clean technique and execution, and to be honest, a bit of force in Sabre (I saw blood drawn a few times when things got "sporty"). Sabre used to be a lot of fun to watch due to the dynamic action and technique. Sometimes I feel like a dinosaur when I see fencing now. I'm from the days of sweating your a** off in an unairconditioned salle and "hit him harder so the judges see it." Good times Wink

There used to be a saying, "Everyone fences foil, the educated fence epee, and the insane fence sabre." Big Grin


Patrick,

That would have been Maestro Hootman - He's been the only fencing master in Wichita since the 1950's. During the mid 80's (when they were starting to play with electric sabre, sometime between 84 and 88), the Wichita Fencing Club/Academy was located on St. Francis street, just north of Douglas, on the second floor. We left that building and club this year, and founded a new club in modern, airconditioned space at Health Strategies, attached to Wesley Hospital. Maestro is still teaching, and just turned 74. The Wichita Eagle was out last night to do a story on us, which is supposed to run next Tuesday.

We're still fencing just about the same as back then. after the stuff got weird, Ted stopped teaching sabre until about 94, when I started, and I didn't have electric equipment for sabre until 2000. Maestro was a student of G. Santelli and Nick Toth, both of whom were involved in the dueling culture in Europe. Santelli fought a dueling sabre duel, and Toth was a second at a military sabre duel in Hungary, where his principal disemboweled his opponent. Surprised both of these took place in the 1920s-30s sometime.

old school sabre like you learned, is what we're still doing, and it *IS* a game that can win in tournaments, even today. It's just pretty uncommon, after the Russian corruption of the game in the 1980s.

Chris

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Chris,

I got your PM, thanks for the photo. I believe that is the ol'boy! Looking pretty good I think. When I was going to college up in Hays (83-87) we took the trip down to Wichita several times to see the Maestro. Our coach, John Klier, didn't want us learning from anyone else. However, he went on sabatical to Russia one year so we made the most of his abscense Big Grin

John was an excellent instructor, and had fenced Sabre with the Russians and Hungarians while living in Russia. We did, however, find out from Maestro Hootman that our technique was a bit dated. He really helped us out a lot with the few lessons he gave us. The names of Santelli and Toth were well known to me back then. I would have gone further but the Navy put paid to my fencing ambitions. I liked your old Salle, creaky wood floors and no AC. Just sweat and flashing Sabres, exacly the way it should be.

I'm sure that after all these years he wouldn't remember a skinny kid from Hays, but say hi for me anyway.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Chris Holzman





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PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 1:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Hi Chris,

I got your PM, thanks for the photo. I believe that is the ol'boy! Looking pretty good I think. When I was going to college up in Hays (83-87) we took the trip down to Wichita several times to see the Maestro. Our coach, John Klier, didn't want us learning from anyone else. However, he went on sabatical to Russia one year so we made the most of his abscense Big Grin

John was an excellent instructor, and had fenced Sabre with the Russians and Hungarians while living in Russia. We did, however, find out from Maestro Hootman that our technique was a bit dated. He really helped us out a lot with the few lessons he gave us. The names of Santelli and Toth were well known to me back then. I would have gone further but the Navy put paid to my fencing ambitions. I liked your old Salle, creaky wood floors and no AC. Just sweat and flashing Sabres, exacly the way it should be.

I'm sure that after all these years he wouldn't remember a skinny kid from Hays, but say hi for me anyway.



Will do, I met Klier twice as well. Last I knew he was still up in Hays. I last saw him at the '95 Halloween Festival (aka the Oakley Challenge of the Heartland Circuit). The first time I met him, in about '94, he brought about 10 people down to the salle, and we fenced sabre with them for most of a saturday afternoon. We gave up a total of about 10 touches to them all day. In reflection, its partly dated technique, and partly an attempt to apply pseudo-hungarian technique in the Russian system. the two are like oil and water. both can work, but the Russian mindset doesn't adapt to Hungarian technique at all well.

I liked the old salle as well, it was like a second home. It hurt to leave, but the 'political' situation was such that it was easier for Ted and I (the only two certified instructors) and 3/4 of the fencers to leave for greener pastures and better facilities, than to fight about it. that said, the fitness center and personal trainers at the new location, are a huge step up, and are going to seriously benefit our feners. Good technique requires a solid base, and with the cardio and weight programs that Health Strategies offers, it'll be easier for our fencers to build that base.

I'm convinced that the problems of classical fencing application to the modern fencing world, are found in the level of physical fitness of the average classical fencer, more so than any issues of technique. If I could finish in the top 25 at NAC's, as a classical sabre fencer in the modern fencing world, out of shape, relying on nothing but experience and old school technique, then people with a real aptitude for the sport, and in good shape, should be able to kick butt in a major way. We've just got to get people into that kind of shape.

Ultimately, I'm convinced that modern fencing will be the death of the sport, unless MAJOR changes take place.

I can't wait until Albion gets my sabre into production.. I got it back, and its documented, and ready to be put into the CAD system.. this is gonna be cool. Big Grin

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 3:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John was a bit of a horses a**, and very pompus. We put up with him though because he had a lot of knowledge. Back then I think we were the only serious Sabre team in the region, so we usually did quite well in tournaments. That last year our team kind of went it's collective ways though. John had spent a year on sabatical, and when he got back he was *very* unhappy that we had been going elswhere for instruction. He was always closed minded, and it was his way or the highway. We were interested in growing as fencers, but I think John just wanted an audience. Our first lesson from Maestro Hootman was a real eye opener to how dated our technique was. When John returned and saw that we were using different techniques, well let's just say that it wasn't pretty Eek! Back in 84-85 we were pretty competitive with it. But if they were still using it a decade later I can understand the lack of success.

Tell the Maestro that I was the skinny (obviously a long time ago) long haired kid that used to hang around with Zoran Stefanov. That may jar his memory.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Chris Holzman





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PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
John was a bit of a horses a**, and very pompus. We put up with him though because he had a lot of knowledge. Back then I think we were the only serious Sabre team in the region, so we usually did quite well in tournaments. That last year our team kind of went it's collective ways though. John had spent a year on sabatical, and when he got back he was *very* unhappy that we had been going elswhere for instruction. He was always closed minded, and it was his way or the highway. We were interested in growing as fencers, but I think John just wanted an audience. Our first lesson from Maestro Hootman was a real eye opener to how dated our technique was. When John returned and saw that we were using different techniques, well let's just say that it wasn't pretty Eek! Back in 84-85 we were pretty competitive with it. But if they were still using it a decade later I can understand the lack of success.

Tell the Maestro that I was the skinny (obviously a long time ago) long haired kid that used to hang around with Zoran Stefanov. That may jar his memory.



Will do. For some reason I recognize the name Zoran Stefanov.. any idea why? is he still up in the Hays are fencing? or did he go elsewhere? I could just be confusing it with someone else, but its a pretty distinctive name.

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zoran was a professor in the art department at FHSU. Last I heard he was still there.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Chris Holzman





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PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Zoran was a professor in the art department at FHSU. Last I heard he was still there.




Hmm.... I'm beginning to wonder if I met Zoran rather tha Klier... I'd almost bet that was the case. don't remember what he looked like, but it was about 94 or 5... that sounds so familiar, and I initially drew a blank thinking when you mentioned Klier, and then decided the intervening years simply robbed me of memory of the name...but my first instinct was that it was a foriegn sounding name.

I'll run it by Maestro if I see him online, or at practice on Friday night. maybe he can shed some light on it.

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Chris Holzman





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PostPosted: Sun 15 Aug, 2004 5:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Zoran was a professor in the art department at FHSU. Last I heard he was still there.



Patrick,

I mentioned it to Ted, he says hi and that he remembers you and Zoran, and confirmed that it was Zoran that I met a few years ago, rather than John Klier. He said he doesn't remember what ever became of Klier.

Did you happen to catch the sabre on saturday? It was pretty clean, all things said and done. one phrase with a rolling countre tierce with a point to the chest, really sticks out in my mind as being exceptionally pretty.

Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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