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Gabriele Becattini





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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Hanwei-Tinker blunt longsword blade with armour class hilt         Reply with quote

Hello,

i have just bought an hanwei tinker blunt longsword blade and a crossguard and pommel from armour class,

i have planned to built a training weapon with it and i would like to know first if in your opinion the cross and pommel

looks right for the kind of blade and if not which kind of mofication could i do for having it looking better together.

i need also to built the handle, so again any suggestion for it?

looking at the last project from Sean Flynt about his "swedish" sword i would like to put a rain chape on my sword too,

do you think that it is out of place for a training sword, i mean too easily damaged by another weapon?


thanks for your help

gabriele



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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun, 2010 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Hanwei-Tinker blunt longsword blade with armour class h         Reply with quote

Gabriele Becattini wrote:
do you think that it is out of place for a training sword


Yes. I can't imagine why there would be one on a training tool. Are there any references that indicate a training tool would even have a scabbard?

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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

in reality i believe that is a silly idea too, the only reason for having one is that i like it but i guess that i will last a minute against another sword Happy
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun, 2010 1:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the jury is still out on the purpose of these devices. There's been quite a bit of discussion in these fora (search for "chappe") but I'm not 100 percent persuaded by any single theory. Here's the most compelling argument for adding the simplest type of chappe to a training sword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8QBr4dTAR0

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By the way, the crude, single-side chappe (clay model) in my Swedish project update photos is just a placeholder to help me judge proportions and visualize the final piece. The final leather chappe will be two-sided and a great deal more elegant. Happy I haven't made one in this style before, but I'm hoping it will be easier than the tubular type.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Hanwei-Tinker blunt longsword blade with armour class h         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Gabriele Becattini wrote:
do you think that it is out of place for a training sword


Yes. I can't imagine why there would be one on a training tool. Are there any references that indicate a training tool would even have a scabbard?


But this is a blunt longsword. It's supposed to resemble a sharp sword, right? In that case, I don't think It's out of place.

Aren't trainingswords supposed to look like this?
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun, 2010 8:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, there are period illustrations of practice swords with a chape. For example, see here from the Paulus Kal fechtbuch:

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00...?seite=127

As Sean pointed out, there's been some discussion into rethinking the purpose of these, as they seem to provide a small amount of hand protection. While I'm not 100% convinced that this was a primary purpose of the chape, it certainly is an interesting thought, and the discussions have at least convinced me that they weren't actually used to keep rain out of the scabbard.

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Hanwei-Tinker blunt longsword blade with armour class h         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
Aren't trainingswords supposed to look like this?


I don't think every training sword in every part of Europe during the entire Middle Ages looked like that, but the A&A sword you link to is a form seen often in period art. Happy

Happy

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Gabriele Becattini





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PostPosted: Wed 23 Jun, 2010 1:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

, i have never considered the idea that a chape could offer a form of protection for the hand, thank you for having let me know about this intriguing argument, the illustration is very interesting too. just a little clarification, my intention is to built a
blunt longsword not a "training sword" like the one offered by Arms&Armour, as the kind of blade i have is completely different. the chape is not really a necessity for me,but for sure i would like to try my hands in building one, as it looks like an easy and visual appealing project. My priority is to built a budget blunt longsword that it's not terribly out of place in the
historical context.
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Christian Henry Tobler
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Jun, 2010 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all,

I'm also of the opinion that these did not evolve as rain guards. I do think it's possible that their later incarnations, some of which do completely seal around the scabbard, may have included this function.

Experiments with their use as hand protection have yielded mixed results. Members of Laurentiusgildet and Hammaborg had results supporting the idea, but I believe it was the folks from Dreynschlag in Vienna who didn't see the same protective quality. I'd say there's therefore more work to be done.

Certainly though, the appearance of chapes on flared ricasso equiped training swords undermines the idea of their primary purpose being rain protection. Such trainers were unlikely to have had scabbards.

If they didn't evolve for hand protection, it's possible they had some other form, beyond the two above possibilities. Perhaps they helped facilitate 'thumb gripping', as seen in German fight books.

Cheers,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
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