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Bryan Robbins




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 6:42 am    Post subject: stupid question (help me choose a sword)         Reply with quote

I am fairly new to the study of medieval weaponry (I specialize in making armor not swords) and I want to know what kind of sword is best and if my description of my sword fits it:

approx 31 1/2 inches long, 2ft blade no taper until about 4 inches from tip of blade, wooden grip with leather cover, and slight V of crossgaurd. like this but with no fuller and a octagonal counterweight

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Neil Gagel




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 7:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "best". There are a lot of ways to define best when it comes to swords. I think that in most instances having a sword that is the "best" at one thing automatically means that it won't be the best at something else. For instance, If you have a light, easy handling sword chances are it won't be the best at penetrating armor or cleaving heavy targets... and then you have to take into consideration that what qualifies as best is very much open to personal interpretation. I know that what I consider good (let alone best) handling characteristics on a sword may differ from what someone else considers good.

I think a sword, such as you describe it might be a decent representation of a type Xa with an unusual crossguard.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 7:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bryan,
There is no "best" sword. Happy Each sword is a product of the circumstances surrounding it. The armour (or lack thereof), technology, and tactics used at the time of the sword's creation largely (but not completely) determined certain elements like length, cross-section, generally-pointiness, stiffness, etc. Decoration and pommel shapes were influenced partly by the factors already mentioned and partly by things such as fashion and wealth. And there is more than goes into a sword's design as well.

If you want any worthwhile discussion on this, you'll have to define what this sword is to be the "best" at. What circumstances will it be facing? What circumstances surrounded its creation? How wealthy is/was its owner? Where does/did the owner live? When does/did the owner live?

Swords (and armour and fashion and everything) must be taken in context. They are a product of when/where/how they were created. So, give us a context and we might be able to help. Happy

Happy

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Bryan Robbins




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

jeez I shoudl have know better, ok a german/italian sword form about 1400 facing plate and chain mainly used for hacking and a small amount of thrusting, useable with two hands but not too heavy to be used easly with one hand nad a shield.
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T.F. McCraken




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

May I recommend this: http://www.deltin.it/5150.htm
The DelTin Italian sword.


Good for one handed use, plus the pommel allows for two-handed use just fine.

Available at Kult of Athena: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...lian+Sword

I own one. Nice blade!

Hope I've helped,
Murphy Cool [/img]

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T.F. McCraken wrote:
May I recommend this: http://www.deltin.it/5150.htm
The DelTin Italian sword.


That's a nice sword, but late 15th century. He's looking for early 15th. Happy

Happy

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Bryan Robbins




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

do you know of any swords that have no taper but on the very tip that fit my desrtiption? that sword looks like it was more of a "slashing" sword, I am looking for a hacking sword
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T.F. McCraken




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bryan, I think your FIRST stop should be http://www.algonet.se/~enda/oakeshott_eng.htm Oakeshotts Typology to find the blade type you're interested in. From there you can inquire here on how to obtain the blade you're looking for.

Hope this helps.
Murphy Cool

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T.F. McCraken wrote:
Bryan, I think your FIRST stop should be http://www.algonet.se/~enda/oakeshott_eng.htm Oakeshotts Typology to find the blade type you're interested in. From there you can inquire here on how to obtain the blade you're looking for.

Hope this helps.
Murphy Cool


Or for a more comprehensive source, located right here on this site: Happy


Oakeshott: The Man and his Legacy

An article by myArmoury.com

Happy

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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: stupid question         Reply with quote

Bryan Robbins wrote:
..... my description of my sword fits it:

approx 31 1/2 inches long, 2ft blade no taper until about 4 inches from tip of blade, ...


I can't see the counterweight well enough to guess what it is similar to in terms of an artifact. (Others here will give you a better assessment if you do post a close up.)

A large number of similar looking swords actually had gradual distal taper about 2/3rd of the way down from the guard from the Scandinavian Viking era onwards. You did not specify the weight and balance, but I would expect it to be heavier than average for similar profile dimension historical counterparts, and to have some extra blade presence. It sounds like a good "hacking" type blade, as opposed to a nimble high cutting performance style. Then again, the entire blade could be thin (1/4" thick at the guard) to start with, and could feel pretty good for a variety of uses.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: stupid question         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
I can't see the counterweight well enough to guess what it is similar to in terms of an artifact. (Others here will give you a better assessment if you do post a close up.)


According to the URL of the image, it's Cold Steel's Viking Sword:

http://www.coldsteel-uk.com/store/viking-sword-thumb.jpg .

Happy

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Andrew Maxwell




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bryan Robbins wrote:
jeez I shoudl have know better, ok a german/italian sword form about 1400 facing plate and chain mainly used for hacking and a small amount of thrusting, useable with two hands but not too heavy to be used easly with one hand nad a shield.


Hi Bryan,

if it's going to be facing plate then thrusting is going to be it's primary function. Also I'm not really sure what you mean when you differentiate between "slashing" and "hacking". If you are talking about slicing vs percussive strikes, that's a function of how you use it, not the blade type. The German systems of this period (of which I am a student) use both.

If you are looking for a cut-oriented blade type, you're probably looking at the wrong period. Swords of this period tend to have a narrow profile and are focussed on thrusting- for a longsword in this period you are looking at the likes of type XVa, XVII, XVIIIa, etc. Maybe a type XVIIIc might be what you are looking for? Though from what I understand they were actually pretty rare.

OTOH the sword you have attached a picture of looks like possibly a type Xa, which is a single-handed type from around the 12th C rather than the 15th.

Men do not care how nobly they live, but only how long, although it is within the reach of every man to live nobly, but within no man's power to live long. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Michael MacLeod




Location: Regina
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 7:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You might want to try Darksword armoury. They are not really historically accurate but they make really durable swords that will hold up to most cutting and hacking you put them through. Heres an example of some that might fill your requirements. http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...vy+V+Sword http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ince+Sword http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ight+Sword
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George E




Location: MA, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andrew Maxwell wrote:
Bryan Robbins wrote:
jeez I shoudl have know better, ok a german/italian sword form about 1400 facing plate and chain mainly used for hacking and a small amount of thrusting, useable with two hands but not too heavy to be used easly with one hand nad a shield.


Hi Bryan,

if it's going to be facing plate then thrusting is going to be it's primary function. Also I'm not really sure what you mean when you differentiate between "slashing" and "hacking". If you are talking about slicing vs percussive strikes, that's a function of how you use it, not the blade type. The German systems of this period (of which I am a student) use both.

If you are looking for a cut-oriented blade type, you're probably looking at the wrong period. Swords of this period tend to have a narrow profile and are focussed on thrusting- for a longsword in this period you are looking at the likes of type XVa, XVII, XVIIIa, etc. Maybe a type XVIIIc might be what you are looking for? Though from what I understand they were actually pretty rare.

OTOH the sword you have attached a picture of looks like possibly a type Xa, which is a single-handed type from around the 12th C rather than the 15th.


I might be mistaken, but the CS Viking is advertised as (and looks as) a type XI. So that would place it far away from plate and the 14th century.


Another possible choice would be a type XVI blade, which was used against armor and was capable of a good thrust and at the same time was a good cutter.

Example: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...ce-xvi.htm

Also, I'm just wondering if you want a blade (since you said you specialize in making armor) to use against the armor you make to ensure that it is "sword-proof" or just looking for a sword to complete your kit.
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh and there's no such thing as a stupid question!

Except maybe the samurai, or ninja, or knight thing. . . . uuuuggghhh. . . Mad
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Bryan Robbins




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am glad that I started this discussion, you have cured me of most of my ignorance, im going to have to rethink my idea...

what cenrury were the swords with the non-thrusing tip/semi-rounded tip?

And what sword do you reccomend for my time of 1380ish-1420ish? from Italy-germany.

Question with boldness,

Speak without fear,

Hold to the truth.- Thomas Jefferson
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George E




Location: MA, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 4:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bryan Robbins wrote:
I am glad that I started this discussion, you have cured me of most of my ignorance, im going to have to rethink my idea...

what cenrury were the swords with the non-thrusing tip/semi-rounded tip?

And what sword do you reccomend for my time of 1380ish-1420ish? from Italy-germany.


rounded tip blades are usually type X through XI, which puts them from the 10th century to the 13th century (type Xa being the longest surviving one). There are Norse blades that go further than that, but I believe you're just interested in medieval swords.

However, though they are round tipped, you can still stab with them (though that's not how they were used most of the time...)

Anyway, if you're looking for something that can still cut and thrust (i.e. be effective against armor), type XIV and type XVI would be my recommendations... I'll give you a link of each from Albion, but if you're new to sword fighting I would highly recommend not buying those. Buy a waster (wooden sword) or a blunt version that's not too expensive, practice with it, damage it, and then, when you're ready to move to the next step, you can buy those, but that's just me Happy

Anyway, links:

Type XIV: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...gn-xiv.htm

Type XVI: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...ce-xvi.htm

(there are other choices in that site for those types, but these two are the ones that I would buy, had I the money...)
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 7:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George E wrote:
Anyway, if you're looking for something that can still cut and thrust (i.e. be effective against armor), type XIV and type XVI would be my recommendations... I'll give you a link of each from Albion, but if you're new to sword fighting I would highly recommend not buying those. Buy a waster (wooden sword) or a blunt version that's not too expensive, practice with it, damage it, and then, when you're ready to move to the next step, you can buy those, but that's just me Happy


Types XIV and XVI are generally earlier than what he's looking for by a number of decades (the XVIs might be less out of date than the XIVs). The types in vogue during this time would include XV, XVII, and XVIII. A XVIa might be a possibility.

Of those, something in the XVIII family might be appropriate. They are often wide for much of their length before tapering to a pointy point.

Bryan Robbins wrote:
And what sword do you reccomend for my time of 1380ish-1420ish? from Italy-germany.


Bryan,
We have a number of spotlight articles that show many dozens of swords. Check those out and see what fits your period and area.

Happy

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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 7:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bryan,

If you're really looking for dedicated cutting blade with a spatulate point, you might consider a later Type XIIa or XIIIa sword.

Type XIIa circa 1350-1400: http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxii12.jpg

Type XIIIa 1350 or later: http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxiii06.jpg

Type XIIIa 1350 or later: http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxiii10.jpg

In my opinion, Albion's various offerings for these swords look appropriate for the late 14th/early 15th C. Examples include the Baron: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...n-xiia.htm, the Duke: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...-xiiia.htm or the Count: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...xiiia2.htm. While it's significantly more expensive, the Count's hilt furniture in particular lends it a later look, late 14th to 15th C.

If all of this looks too expensive for you, you could always consider Albion's Late 13th Century Great Sword: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/sq...rsword.htm. I realize that it's labelled as 13th century, rather than 15th, but honestly, the dating of swords isn't the most precise of arts, and there's a lot of crossover between styles of hilt furniture that could date both from an earlier or later era on Type XIIa and XIIIa swords. The other thing to consider is that this sword will handle far better than nearly every other sword you could buy at a similar price point. In other words, it's not one that you'll likely regret owning. The handling characteristics of all my Albions are superb, and that includes my Squire Line sword too.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 8:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think Bryan may have to figure out what he really wants. The Baron, Duke, and Count fit what he might want in terms of blade shape/taper, but they are a bit too early for his time period and don't fit his description of "usable with two hands but not too heavy to be used easily with one hand and a shield."
Happy

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