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Robert Ostrowski




Location: Massachusetts USA
Joined: 12 May 2010

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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 3:34 pm    Post subject: Can anyone tell me what period this sheild is from?         Reply with quote

I have this shield and would like to know if anyone can tell where it is from and what Century! I have no other information about it.

Thank You,
Robert



 Attachment: 34.17 KB
Shield1.jpg


 Attachment: 139.87 KB
Shield.jpg



Last edited by Robert Ostrowski on Wed 12 May, 2010 4:44 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert,

I cannot tell you want century it's from; however, the close-up shot of the image leads me to think it's probably Persian. There are very similar figures in the line drawings from Persia in Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era Vol: II.
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Myles Mulkey





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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 5:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Definitely a non-Western style, I'd agree with Persian or possibly even Moroccan. As far as dating goes, I have no clue. But the pitting looks authentic, which could be a good indication of age if genuine.
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Tom King




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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Its definately middle eastern from what I know of the design but age is tricky. The ottoman empire used traditional weopons and armor well into the 18th and 19th century's. Theres a slight chance it could have even seen action in WWI Big Grin With my limited knowledge I'd say its between 800 to 150 years old. Most likely near 150 considering its not a pile of ornate rust.
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Robert Ostrowski




Location: Massachusetts USA
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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 6:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I thought it might be persian but wasn't sure. I had someone look at it at a pawn shop and they thought it might be around the 16th Century but wasn't sure
Here is another view



 Attachment: 55.43 KB
Shield4.jpg



Last edited by Robert Ostrowski on Thu 13 May, 2010 2:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 6:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Persian is very possible but I wonder if Indian might also be possible as some regional styles might be heavily influenced by Persian weapons.

I'm certainly not an expert on Asian weapons but it certainly isn't European in style.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Tom King




Location: florida
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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 7:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The central engraving shows a man in a turban with a distinctly middle eastern dagger whose name has slipped my mind. It could be northern indian but is most likely ottoman. Where did you get it Robert? a heirloom from a british grandfather stationed in india would be a definate clue to its origins xD
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Jean-Carle Hudon




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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject: Indian         Reply with quote

I would look to India, and the different cartouches with individuals depicted should help in your research. I don't think one would bother with depicting any unknown individual on a shield, but rather use it to pay homage to a renowned leader or political or cultural icon. The lion attacking the central figure might also be a clue, with regard to some story or legend.
Muslim cultures are not known for their interest in human pictorials, so I would think that the shield would not come from a totally muslim area such as Turkey, Morocco or Persia. The Indian subcontinent seems more likely. Good luck. JC

Bon coeur et bon bras
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sun 16 May, 2010 4:24 am    Post subject: Re: Indian         Reply with quote

Jean-Carle Hudon wrote:
Muslim cultures are not known for their interest in human pictorials, so I would think that the shield would not come from a totally muslim area such as Turkey, Morocco or Persia


Not in large-scale depictions where the human figure lies at the center of illustrations, but there's a long and time-honored tradition of miniature illustrations on page margins and such that depicted the human figure in considerable detail. The idea that there's no human figure in Muslim art is patently false, at least if taken as a simplistic generalization. So let's not rule out these other areas so quickly, OK?

(Not to mention that much of India was ruled by the Mughals for much of the early modern period, and the artists in Mughal India didn't appear to have been less reluctant to illustrate the human figure than those in the neighboring non-Muslim states!)
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Jean-Carle Hudon




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PostPosted: Sun 16 May, 2010 6:07 am    Post subject: Hunting scenes         Reply with quote

Robert,
While reading ''Empire of the Sikhs'' a while back, I came across a very similar piece. They were still currently used by Sikh warriors in their fights with british and afghans in the nineteenth century.
Do any of the hunters seem feminine ? Sikhs were more likely to accept the notion than other cultures, and Maharaj Ranjit singh had a famous female bodyguard contingent that really impressed the British high command .
Good luck.
PS
Curtis, I was going by probabilities. I have never seen Muslim shields with human pictorials, but there are undoubtedly many things that I have not yet seen, so I'm open to the concept.

Bon coeur et bon bras
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Sun 16 May, 2010 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is an Indo Persian dhal. They come in a variety of sizes from roughly buckler sized to large full shiled size ( 20,22 or even 24" ) although they are all used in the single hand like a buckler. I am unsure of the origins of the writting as several types of skrit were used in the region as well as arabic with the muslims and they look somewhat similar to the untrained eye. Dhal were used militarily pretty late in the area, till the end of the 19th century, with numbers being made for the English export tourist market as well. Do you have any pics of the back? Is there any fabric remaining or the fabiric knuckle pad between the four grip rings? Are the grips still intact or missing? At a guess i'd say this is most likely 19th century.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sun 23 May, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Hunting scenes         Reply with quote

Jean-Carle Hudon wrote:
Do any of the hunters seem feminine ?


Not to my eyes--they lack beards but the way their faces, poses, and clothes were drawn are consistent with the male figures I've seen elsewhere in Persian and Central Asian art.
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János Sibinger




Location: Hungary/France
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PostPosted: Sun 23 May, 2010 8:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings!
I have seen similar shields with the same kind of ornaments in the ethnographic museum's warehouse in Budapest. I asked the curator and he said that those pieces were brought in by travelers in the XVIII th and XIX th centuries, from persia. As I recall I saw such shields in the museums, where most of the collection was about the Turkish-Hungarian wars, after Mátyás Hunyadi, (Mainly the XVI th century.) I hope I was able to help!

John
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Robert Ostrowski




Location: Massachusetts USA
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PostPosted: Mon 24 May, 2010 4:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would like to thank you all for all the information you have providedme.
I sent pictures and information to an on line appraiser and this was her reply. It sure doesn't look like it was stamped so I don't know what to think. Here was her appraisal:



Dhal / Shield ,Indian, Watered Steel, Handles fastened by ring bolts riveted to four bosses on the shields face, chiseled and gilded decoration. 19 inch tall.19inches diameter , India,c. 16th century -17thcentury . Medieval shields were used to protect a soldier or knight from direct blows from the weapons of their enemies. The buckler, kite shield, heater shield, pavise, and target were types of shields used from 800 to 1500 A.D. The weapons of the light cavalry in the 15th century were the sabre, the spear and the bow, but clubs or battle axes were also used. The most widespread type of sabre was the hussar sabre, copied from Turkish models. It had a single blade, which was slightly curved, and its hilt was straight and wide. Hungarian sabres with curved hilts turned up in the 16th century, and they became the most popular weapons. Warriors both in the heavy and light cavalry used shields to protect themselves. Shields were usually made of wood, with their surface covered with leather or linen, but the hussars often used small, round shields woven from reeds. Indian warriors carried a round shield called a dhal made of steel or hide. Ornate decorations and embellishments were often characteristic of Indian arms and armour. Many were chased with brass, silver, or gold, or fitted with ivory or jade hilts. Dahl: The small or medium-sized round shield, called the dahl, was the most common Indian shield, particularly during the age of encounters with European powers. The dahl was circular, commonly of embossed leather or steel, and was used throughout India and the regions to its Northwest. Its form changed little over the centuries. The dahl typically had four or five metal bosses on its face and two handles on the inside: one to slide the shield arm through, and the other for the shield hand to grasp. Some, often referred to as "Persian" in style, have six bosses and three handles, two of which the arm passes through. This is a nice dahl. However, it was made for the Greek tourist market. It has a lot of Greek mythology characters on it. This was most likely made in in India. The do a lot of weapon reproductions. It is missing a lot of it's grip backing. I believe the decoration is stamped and not chiseled.Item made to look oid. I assume it is currently being made to date.
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Tomas Mihalyi




Location: Slovakia
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PostPosted: Mon 24 May, 2010 7:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the shape of this shield looks quite similar to the ones used by arab infantry troops during the crusaders period... maybe of Saladins army but Im no expert in this so dont take it too serious.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 24 May, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks etched to me.
-Sean

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Daniel Sullivan




Location: California
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PostPosted: Mon 24 May, 2010 5:43 pm    Post subject: Shield         Reply with quote

Robert,

Agree with Allan, I would look to India. Have seen a few of these that were modern reproductions and were spun from a flat metal disc. Examine the backside for circular tooling marks. These appeared on the market about 20-25 years ago along with matching helmets. After spinning they were finished off with good old hammer work. Another clue; there should be four metal rings (for handholds) attached to the backs of the bosses. Are the rings made of round stock/wire? Or are they made of flat stock (hand wrought)?

Still have three dahls and all are from the 18th or 19th century. One has very shallow etching similar to your, but also some applied work. The backside fittings are all hand made and somewhat crude. Have also owned a few of these in the past, a couple made of rhino hide (tough stuff) and one of painted leather.


Regards,
Dan
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