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Julien M




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PostPosted: Tue 04 May, 2010 3:55 am    Post subject: Info/specs: type XVI at the Nationalmuseet, Copenhagen         Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

I've signed up for a sword course in August, during which I will (hopefully) forge and assemble my first sword under the guidance of Owen bush. Dealing with the basics of forging/ handling of new tools etc will be enough of a challenge in itself so I'd like to arrive as prepared as I can....So I'm looking for all the information I can gather on this sword below, which I will aim at reproducing to the best of my abilities. It is featured in records of the medieval sword, including blade length (quote below). Any pictures would be welcome, or indication of overall weight, measurements etc.

PS: I'm aware that the review section features a sword made by Jason Dingledine containing detailed specs of the replica
http://www.myArmoury.com/review_jd_xvi.html

Thanks in advance for your help,

Julien

XVI.3
Type: XVI
Find-place: Unknown, but in Denmark
Collection: Nationalmuseet, Copenhagen
Blade-length: 30 1/8" (76.5 cms)
Pommel-type: T.1
Cross-style: 6
Date: c.130050
Condition: River-found? Excellent. The erosion on the edges of the blade is the result of wear and honing, not corrosion. The fuller bears a neat four-letter inscription inlaid in latten. This inscription is similar to that upon the blade of the big XIIIa in the Burrell Collection in Glasgow, shown here above at XIIIa.10.
There is a sword extremely similar to this - its hilt is identical, though its blade is about 6" longer, in the Museum at Bern (inv. No.840). That one, however, has no inscription.
Publication: Hoffmeyer; P1.XXXIId.2 p.34 no.1 Oakeshott, SAC pl.20b



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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 04 May, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You should see if the museum will let you examine it in person. Can't hurt to ask, and it's a short hop from London to Copenhagen.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Tue 04 May, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
You should see if the museum will let you examine it in person. Can't hurt to ask, and it's a short hop from London to Copenhagen.


Unless you drive (a top gear reference...and I know off topic...but the episode was funny Happy ).

In anycase, yeah asking works more often then you would think unless the object in question is on display. In which case, it almost never works without getting some credentials.

Another idea maybe to see if you can contact Jason about the reproduction he did and maybe pick his brain about it.
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Wed 05 May, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well...I tried that before at the RA with little success Happy

Not the easiest thing to achieve...when you are an amateur with little or no credentials.

Are you a bladesmith?
Hum...not exactly...

Are you an history student?
Hum...not anymore...

I'll base my blade on the replica stats given on the review, will ask Dan here who owns the replica for more details, and will also have a close look at the Albion prince/squire, for both those swords have a very similar blade (at least overall type and shape appears to be a match...I might replace the pommel with an oval disk such as the squire while I'm at it).

All this is purely theorical anyway, as though I have full confidence in Owen's skills and teaching abilities to ensure that I will end up with more than a sharpened/tempered crowbar I expect no miracles (the course is one week long) as I have never forged anything in my life before. Still I think it's better to show up with a plan/blueprint as a guide, and I'm determined to give it my best shot. Can't wait to start on this, and I will probably document my progress (or utter failure Happy ) on the forum late August.

Cheers,

Julien
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 05 May, 2010 9:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're an "independent arms and armour researcher". If you publish on this site or elsewhere you're an "independent arms and armour researcher and author".
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Dan Sellars





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PostPosted: Wed 05 May, 2010 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
..., and I will probably document my progress (or utter failure Happy ) on the forum late August.

Cheers,

Julien


please do it would be fascinating to read (and see if you can get progress pics) how you go with this. One of these course is something I would love to be able to do at some point.
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Wed 05 May, 2010 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
You're an "independent arms and armour researcher". If you publish on this site or elsewhere you're an "independent arms and armour researcher and author".


Splendid, I love it...this is going straight on my business card Happy
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Owen Bush
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PostPosted: Thu 06 May, 2010 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have been looking at this blade and I like it a lot
I think it would be a lovely sword and buckler blade , maybe a little bit shorter and lighter would suit me better .
I may well make a version of this for myself as the course demonstration piece (in high layer Damascus of course) .
I wonder who I would need to contact to take a look at it in person ?
In do like Copenhagen too !!

forging soul into steel .

www.owenbush.co.uk the home of bushfire forge school of smithing .
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Fri 07 May, 2010 1:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Owen,

I'm glad you approve of this choice. Type XVI are an old time favourite, with that tapering profile but yet relatively wide blade. and very mean looking with that reinforced flat diamond point.

A shorter version typical of sword and buckler swords could infact be quiet close to a type XIV, if we plan on a broader blade and I wonder if that would not be a more appropriate choice for a first timer, as as far as I know some type XIV have the same blade profile from shoulder to tip, while type XVI go from lenticular to flat diamond...and that transition might give me some trouble. What do you guys think...is it harder to forge a wide blade or harder to forge a composite blade profile?

Cheers,

j
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Owen Bush
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PostPosted: Fri 07 May, 2010 2:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

its going to keep you on your toes either way .
it is worth keeping your hopes realistic when forging a first sword . so much of the finer points are a matter of lots of time with a file or sandpaper .
I still make blades and wish I had made them , thinner/ thicker.or changed transitions or taper profiles . It is a long and continuing learning curve .
I am unsure as to how lenticular the section of a blade such as this would be .with out any better info, I do wonder if that is just a product of sharpening the thicker blade section. without real measurement and or a good look it is really hard to tell .

forging soul into steel .

www.owenbush.co.uk the home of bushfire forge school of smithing .
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Søren Niedziella
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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PostPosted: Fri 07 May, 2010 4:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Julien,

Since my office is only 5 min´s away from the National Museum in Copenhagen I jumped at the chance to go have a look at the swords again. The sword you are looking for is on display. I have attached a couple of pictures taken with my iphone (sorry I have no better camera at the moment). I hope they can help a little. It´s a very nice looking sword :-)
Not easy to get photos that give you more info though ... I will PM you the email to a guy who works at the museum and who can help you find the right person to answer questions about it (don´t know if they have any more info than you already have).

If you want me to try and look at a particular detail of the sword let me know (admission is free to the museum).

Best wishes,

Søren



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Julien M




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PostPosted: Fri 07 May, 2010 5:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Søren,

Thank you very much for taking the time to grab and post these great pictures. They may come from an Iphone, but they are still the best close pics of this sword I've seen...very informative too. I know now how the guard looks in section, and have a better idea of how the pommel is shaped (I would never have guessed it was so thick). If you need me to return the favour in any museum in London, don't hesitate to ask!

Given the way the display is set, it seems impossible to get a full size shot...but if you were to go there again, I'd love a shot of the last third of the blade, especially from the end of the fueller to the tip, where the blade profile turns to flat diamond.

This is a feature I am not planning (or able!) to replicate but I've also heard that the fueller is flat. Is that a noticeable feature when looking at the sword in person? (I can't say for sure from the pictures).

I will write to the contact you provided, to ask for a high res pict of the entire sword (the museum supervisor of Westminster Abbey offered to provide this for the Henry V sword last I went there so this might be possible without too much hassle for a small fee).

Owen Bush wrote:
its going to keep you on your toes either way . it is worth keeping your hopes realistic when forging a first sword


I will keep that in mind Owen Happy Concerning the subtleties of the blade geometry, maybe Peter J might be able to tell you more as I understand he has seen this sword up close a number of times and though he has not documented it he knows it very well.

Cheers,

Julien
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Wed 19 May, 2010 12:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to share the results of my investigation on this sword at the Nationalmuseet in Copenhagen. The curator has provided me with the below:

The sword (inv. nr. 16163) was found in 1857 in a moor called Ordrup Moor close to Copenhagen. The double-edged sword has a length of 93.3 cm, the handle (including the pommel) is 15.7 cm long, and the blade is 5.5 cm broad at the top. The cross guard is 15.6 cm long and flat towards each end. The pommel, which is hollow, is made of a bronze-like metal.

The inscription + N n D I G + on the blade is inlaid in brass, but it has not been possible to interpret the words .

Interestingly enough, I took for granted that the sword, being a typical type XVI, would be dated to the first half of the 14th century. But I've been told by the museum that they considered the sword to be almost 100 years older.

Cheers,

Julien
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