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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Apr, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Katzbalger from Kelvingrove?         Reply with quote

Does anybody have photos of the katzbalger (#E-1939.65) found at the Kelvingrove Museum? If so, please share.

I'm curious about the upper grip material. I believe it's organic--horn, ivory, or even stone, perhaps. Any insight into that would be helpful, too.

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Malcolm A




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 5:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,
I was at the Kelvingrove Museum recently and took a few pictures, one of which I think has that Katzbalger in it.

I am not sure how much detail there is of the handle but providing there has not been any problems with my camera / photography skills, I shall gladly post it in here for you.

Interestingly enough, up until my visit I had not been particularly enthralled with the Katzbalger design but having now actually seen one I must admit to be bowled over by it.
The words elegant, deadly, awesome, intimidating and so many others spring to mind.
Cheers
Malcolm

It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself
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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: Katzbalger from Kelvingrove?         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Does anybody have photos of the katzbalger (#E-1939.65) found at the Kelvingrove Museum? If so, please share.

I'm curious about the upper grip material. I believe it's organic--horn, ivory, or even stone, perhaps. Any insight into that would be helpful, too.


By a rather remarkable co-incidence, I was doing some notes on that very peice just last night for someone, and uploaded two photographs of it for the person who I was talking with.

And, as a result, the photos are still online.

first off, though, to correct you, its catalogue code is #E1939.65.lh , not 65 - that might help you with more details... though it does seem to be one of the Kelvingove's great little treasures, snuck away on the side of the display in a softly lit corner, while the flashier bits stand at the front demanding more attention.





are a pair of photographs of the hilt.

I think that the central hilt section is horn, though there's a chance that it might be slightly stained ivory. I had assumed it was ivory for the last few years, but the second photograph I took there, from an upwards angle has shown a darker tone to the material on the underside, which is making me rather suspect that pale horn is the likely material.
the cap on the end, and the cross arm caps are, I seem to recall, brass or latten, rather than bronze.

I have a few more photographs of its hilt, if you'd like, but they're not particularly great. its on display in a way that makes photography rather difficult - one of the incredible flamboyant zweihanders sits below it, blocking the view, and the background is horribly cluttered with the new display in the Kelvingrove...
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

WOW. Those pictures are the only color photos I've seen of that piece! I've never had such a glimpse of that grip material. It's very clearly an organic material of some sort. If anybody else has an opinion on what that material might be, I'd be happy to hear it.

Thank you for posting them! I've attached them to this post so they won't ever disappear. Happy



 Attachment: 183.92 KB
Katzbalger_E1939-65-lh_02.jpg
Photos from The Kelvingrove Museum

 Attachment: 152.4 KB
Katzbalger_E1939-65-lh_01.jpg
Photos from The Kelvingrove Museum

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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote
Quote:
If anybody else has an opinion on what that material might be, I'd be happy to hear it.


Hard to say but it does look like a stone to me and could pass as Oliphant stone, which is a Cornish (UK) soapstone. Fantastically easy to work using wood working tools.

I will try and post up a picture of some if I can dig a chunk out.

Tod

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Malcolm A




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As promised here is the picture that I recently took at the Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow.
Sadly it is not as good as the ones posted by J Elmslie but if nothing else it does show a rather awesome two handed sword above it as well. There is tantalising glmpse of a zweihander below it too.

The exhibit is overall brilliant but it is a tad cluttered as intimated by J ELmslie and doesnt really lend itself to photography and my poor standard of lensmanship is therefore really disadvantaged!
There was a particulary good cinqueda on show that I didnt manage to photograph. LIke the katzbalger it wasn't a type I liked until I saw it for real.
I was glad I took the time to vist both the Kelvingrove and the Burrell Collection as well, even if I didn't expand on my meagre collection of photos by much!



 Attachment: 126.27 KB
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Picture taken at Kelvingrove Museum March 2010
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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Malcolm A wrote:
t but it is a tad cluttered


the curious thing is, as a display, it works fantastically - steel sculpture of period clothin, in correct stances for the longswords, rapier or similar weapons, which are mounted onto the sculptures themselves.

looks amazing, in the flesh.

but for a photograph? absolutely terrible. all the lines and bits just make a clutter in the background that the human eye filters out normally.


I suppose it's one way to make people keep coming back Happy


Leo Todeschini wrote:

(Oliphant stone) I will try and post up a picture of some if I can dig a chunk out.
Tod



ooh. please do. I've never heard of that before. I've seen some amazing serpentine when I was in cornwall, down at the Lizard Point, and would love to get more of that... the stone you're describing sounds fascinating too. would be lovely to try out for sculpture, nevermind replicas.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A display like that cries for a long lens with shallow depth of field.

Thank you both for the photographs. They are excellent. As I've hinted, I've only seen that sword and many in the collection on old black and white photos on newsprint at a low dot-screen.

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Dan Mackison





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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You could always just do a web search and email the guy who would know ...

Quote:

Dear Mr Mackison,
Thank you very much for your enquiry. The materials that comprise the grip of the katzbalger (Glasgow Museums Accession no. E.1939.65.lh) are steel and ebony. Please find an image attached. Higher-resolution images can be purchased from the photo library.

Photo Library
Glasgow Museums
The Burrell Collection
Pollok Country Park
2060 Pollokshaws Road
Glasgow
G43 1AT
Scotland
United Kingdom

Phone +44 (0) 141 287 2595.
Fax +44 (0) 141 287 2585.
Email photolibrary@csglasgow.org
All the best with your research,
Yours,
Ralph

Ralph Moffat
Curator of European Arms & Armour
Glasgow Museums
Kelvingrove Art Gallery & Museum
Argyle Street, Glasgow, G3 8AG

Tel: 0141 276 9548
E-mail: Ralph.Moffat@csglasgow.org




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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 8:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
A display like that cries for a long lens with shallow depth of field.


50 f1.8---My favorite lens, and usually one of the best, lightest, most compact and cheapest in a given maker's lineup. Gets too long for my taste on a cropped DSLR, but still gives the nice, shallow depth of field. Big Grin

-Sean

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Nathan Robinson wrote:
A display like that cries for a long lens with shallow depth of field.


50 f1.8---My favorite lens, and usually one of the best, lightest, most compact and cheapest in a given maker's lineup. Gets too long for my taste on a cropped DSLR, but still gives the nice, shallow depth of field. Big Grin


I use a 50 f/1.4 or an 85 f/1.4 on an uncropped DSLR (full frame, so it's the same as an old 35mm film camera).

Good stuff.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Mackison-

The full-length blade shot shows why I'm so intrigued by this piece. It's beautiful.

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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Mackison wrote:
You could always just do a web search and email the guy who would know ...

Quote:
steel and ebony.


blimey. that I did'nt expect. every time I've looked at it, it always seems to light a colour for ebony...

and yes, we could've emailed ralph moffat... but I'm sure if I emailed the poor guy any more and he'd probably be sick of me. Worried

(which reminds me, I should try to re-arrange a viewing of one of the bits that I wanted to get some details of... they said they'd probably be busy till april... where did this month go?)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Note the reinforced point!
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well it definitely is not stone then!

However for those intrigued here is a chunk of Polyphant stone

Tod



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