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C Bosh




Location: France
Joined: 10 Aug 2009

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 12:55 am    Post subject: Help with Scottish basket hilted swords         Reply with quote

Most of my sword commissions this year are in celebration of the Auld Alliance- Scotland and France or France and Scotland depending where you live.
I was wondering is there any linear or chronological order to the development of the Scottish basket hilt ? is there any dates applying to key features that appear in them? The ring at the end of the guard through which the pommel sits ?
Generally just features like that ?
I can find little here in France on the subject, and I am afraid my English is not that fluent, what I am writing now is all computer generated, and there can be never be completely mistake free, so my apologies for any mistakes and I hope this is clear to understand.
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A. Spanjer




Location: USA
Joined: 26 Apr 2009

Posts: 242

PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 4:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think this is exactly what you're looking for, but it may be helpful. (I think the image belongs to someone on myArmoury, but I can't remember who)

Je ne pense pas que c'est exactement ce que vous cherchez, mais il peut être utile. (Je pense que l'image appartient à quelqu'un sur myArmoury, mais je ne sais plus qui)



 Attachment: 98.05 KB
BasketTypesScottish.jpg


Na sir 's na seachain an cath.
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C Bosh




Location: France
Joined: 10 Aug 2009

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 5:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you so much for your help, yes it is a little of what I wanted, I just need dates to match, or did they overlap?
Again thank you so much, and congratulations on such a wonderful reply ( you have a French keyboard ?) as well as the information..
Christoph
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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello! first of all it would help if you gave us a time period that you are most interested in.

Second , please note that many of the hilts posted above are not Scottish. and they vary in time quite a lot. 200 plus years

C Bosh wrote:
I was wondering is there any linear or chronological order to the development of the Scottish basket hilt ?


yes.......... and no. there were early forms (search for the basket hilt recovered from the Mary Rose) and then an explosion of many different forms in the mid to late 17th c. then after the 1745, military forms became increasingly standardized.

I don't know of a single place to point you other than if you are really interested in hilts, then Mazansky's book may be the ticket. http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.1843830531.html He has approximate dates for most of the swords pictured.

Wallace is a classic book, small, but has some key B&W photos http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.0811715094.html

The Swords and the Sorrows is a great book when you can find it and does have a nice cross section of swords from late 17th to mid 18th c. http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.0901625582.html
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello All,

I'm a bit confused as the Auld Alliance ran from 1295 to 1560.

2010 doesn't pair up with either date and the Highland Baskethilt was just starting to develop. Also, what I find confusing that it was the Lowland culture that was aligned with the Auld Alliance and the Gaelic Highlands were more aligned with the Gaelic Irish during those time frames.

Cheers,

David

Bonjour à tous,

Je suis un peu confus comme l'Auld Alliance couru de 1295 à 1560.

2010 ne soit paire avec la date et l'Baskethilt Highland commençait tout juste à se développer. Aussi, ce que je trouve déroutant que c'était la culture des basses terres qui a été alignée sur la Auld Alliance et les Highlands Gaelic étaient plus aligné avec le gaélique irlandais au cours de ces délais.

Pour votre santé,

David

(Aussi une traduction assistée par ordinateur)

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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C Bosh




Location: France
Joined: 10 Aug 2009

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sat 24 Apr, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry about the delay in reply, I am making the most of the good weather and the weekend that has final got to my little bit of the globe. Time for this basket hilt sword is around 1700-1745.
I know it misses the main period for the French influence, but I have commissioned several other earlyer swords and this would just finish the project. why commishion in 2010 ? my smith can start to fit them in now, and a small invetment means i can afford them now, before the money finds a more practical use*
Thank you for your help.
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A. Spanjer




Location: USA
Joined: 26 Apr 2009

Posts: 242

PostPosted: Sat 24 Apr, 2010 3:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C Bosh wrote:
Thank you so much for your help, yes it is a little of what I wanted, I just need dates to match, or did they overlap?
Again thank you so much, and congratulations on such a wonderful reply ( you have a French keyboard ?) as well as the information..
Christoph


I hope it's helpful!
Your welcome! To answer your question, no, I do not have a French keyboard or speak French (though I would like to learn someday), I used an online translator, the same as you.

J'espère que c'est utile!
Votre accueil! Pour répondre à votre question, non, je n'ai pas un clavier français ou le français (bien que je voudrais apprendre un jour), j'ai utilisé un traducteur en ligne, tout comme vous.

Na sir 's na seachain an cath.
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
Joined: 03 Mar 2004

Posts: 386

PostPosted: Sat 24 Apr, 2010 5:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C Bosh wrote:
Sorry about the delay in reply, I am making the most of the good weather and the weekend that has final got to my little bit of the globe. Time for this basket hilt sword is around 1700-1745.
I know it misses the main period for the French influence, but I have commissioned several other earlyer swords and this would just finish the project. why commishion in 2010 ? my smith can start to fit them in now, and a small invetment means i can afford them now, before the money finds a more practical use*
Thank you for your help.

The last Jacobite rising, then. The the S-hilts are a good option that fits your time frame well. There are some different styles, but the conventional "bars and panels" style would probably be predominant. There were a lot of older swords pressed into service or passed down still being as functional as when they were made.
Here's a picture of a fairly typical "S-hilt" with bars and panels, to give you an idea. I guess this is a Stirling made hilt.


Cheers,
Henrik

Constant and true.
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GG Osborne





Joined: 21 Mar 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Sat 24 Apr, 2010 7:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I hadn't gotten to the last post on this thread and had tnought to make almost the exact same comment as did Henrik regarding the "S" hilt. The problem as I see it...and a question so far unasked...is "What are you trying to portray?" During the Jacobite Period from 1689 to 1746, you tend to see, perhaps, four classes or broad divisions of Scot troops out in the field. (1) Landed Gentry and their immediate families, (2) Major tenants of the gentry, often called "tacksmen" as they held long-term leases called tacks, (3) the agricultural yeoman, the tenants of the tenants living at the substience-level or a little above, and (4) Lowland levies and mercenaries. One of the problems we have discussed in similar threads before is that swords and edged weapons in general only survived -generally- from groups one and two. In fact, it is highly likely that group 3 did'nt have swords at all and probably group 4 as well (at least as far as basket hilts are concerned.)

So, you have two issues as I see it: (1) who are you portraying and (2) the time frame. If you center on 1740-1746 and you want a good representative sword for group 2, I still think the "S" hilt would be a fantastic choise. These particular swords range from fairly ornate to fairly utilitarian. So if you accept the design [remise, there is a wide range of options such as the design of the "S" itself to the ornateness of the guard plates, side and front. So, the "S" hilt could have been common throughout the period and couild have covered a wide range of socio-economic capabilities to order and purchase such a sword.

Now as far as who, I would have strongly recommended Donnie Shearer for this project if he was still making swords as I have one of his "upper end" "S: hilys and it is very nice. Next would be ELJay Ericson would can make such about anything. I have a rathyer plain "S" hilt from him that is also very nice. But what I think I would recommend is that since you have ordered from Ian at Armour Class before, his basic "S" hilt is a good early pattern - almost transitional, in fact due to the gurad and the thinness of the bars, but (and her's the thing) Ian has recentlky shown himself willing to take on customizations and work over-and-beyond his standard models. If I were you and was working on a more modest budget and quicker turn-around, I'd send him your idea and see what he has to say.

Good luck!!

"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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C Bosh




Location: France
Joined: 10 Aug 2009

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Mon 17 May, 2010 12:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry for the delay, I have moved house and moving my internet connection is not as easy as I thought.
I am not trying to portray any time period, but to have a small collection of scottish swords to add to my mainly medieval ones. The smith I have already have and worked with many times before, and I am a keen believer in supporting local workers, if there work is up to the mark.
I am using some one else computer at the moment and a different translation package, so sorry if there is any problems with my English.
What date would the attached picture represent? it is a little romantic I know , but in general.
Much thanks.



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A. Spanjer




Location: USA
Joined: 26 Apr 2009

Posts: 242

PostPosted: Mon 17 May, 2010 5:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C Bosh wrote:
Sorry for the delay, I have moved house and moving my internet connection is not as easy as I thought.
I am not trying to portray any time period, but to have a small collection of scottish swords to add to my mainly medieval ones. The smith I have already have and worked with many times before, and I am a keen believer in supporting local workers, if there work is up to the mark.
I am using some one else computer at the moment and a different translation package, so sorry if there is any problems with my English.
What date would the attached picture represent? it is a little romantic I know , but in general.
Much thanks.


To me, that looks like a British Regimental Basket-Hilt. Could be anywhere from late 18th to early 20th centuries. But I could be wrong.

Pour moi, cela ressemble à un régiment britannique Basket-garde. Pourrait être n'importe où à partir de la fin du 18ème siècle jusqu'au début du 20ème siècle. Mais je peux me tromper.

Na sir 's na seachain an cath.
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