Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search


Please help our efforts with a donation. This site requires ongoing funding and your donations are crucial to our future.
Last 10 Donors: Neil Eddiford, Chad Arnow, Jean Thibodeau, Robert Morgan, Adam Rose, Jerry Otahal, Michael P. Smith, Mikko Kuusirati, Eric Bergeron, Daniel Staberg (View All Donors)

Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Hauberk with mittens Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Bart Zantingh




Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Joined: 05 Jan 2009

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu 15 Apr, 2010 5:58 am    Post subject: Hauberk with mittens         Reply with quote

Hi there!

I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get a mid-13th century hauberk with mittens? I could make them myself of course, but it would be a whole lot easier if I could buy one, the lazy SOB that I am Big Grin

I have searched all over the net, but all I can find are full- and way-too-baggy-sleeved hauberks, with and without integrated coifs... But no mittens at all...

Thanks!

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

-Matthew 16:24, as used in Pope Urban II's preachings prior to the First Crusade
View user's profile Send private message
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Thu 15 Apr, 2010 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Hauberk with mittens         Reply with quote

I have looked at a lot of different mail suppliers but I haven't seen any yet.

Bart Zantingh wrote:
I have searched all over the net, but all I can find are full- and way-too-baggy-sleeved hauberks, with and without integrated coifs... But no mittens at all...


I think this is exactly why. Standard hauberks are baggy to fit many people. Mittens on baggy sleeves don't work.

I suggest you buy a normal/baggy hauberk and tailor it to fit you well. Then extend the sleeves and weave mittens yourself, or get a pair of mail mittens and attach them to your hauberk (make sure that the mail of the mittens and hauberk is comparable. Prefeably buy from the same supplier and line). This is still manual work, but a whole lot less than weaving your own hauberk.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
Joined: 02 Sep 2008

Posts: 239

PostPosted: Thu 15 Apr, 2010 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have done this exact thing, adding the mittens and an integrated coif to a hauberk buyed by ebay (50 knee and wrist lenght!). More you can take you time to reshape it to your exact figure: remember only the holes to extract the hands...

I know it's a lot of work, but the only hauberk you can find in the middle-low prices range are pretty standard (baggy, very large sleeves and without any special addition).
Ask if you need an hand.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 307

PostPosted: Thu 15 Apr, 2010 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is my insufficiently researched opinion that sleeves with mittens need to have the grain of the mail run perpendicular to the grain on the body of the hauberk. It`s my guess that this adds an extra level of complication to the production of the mail that most producers either don`t know about or don`t want to take on.

I say "don`t know about" in full realization that I may be wrong in my belief that this is what was done historically for full-sleeved mail with mittens.

However, it is my general observation that most commercially made mail sleeves have the grain running in such a way that it can't really hug snugly to the arms, the way it does on the body.

Ottawa Swordplay
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ryan Renfro




Location: Reno, NV
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 98

PostPosted: Thu 15 Apr, 2010 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Hauberk with mittens         Reply with quote

Bart Zantingh wrote:
Hi there!

I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get a mid-13th century hauberk with mittens? I could make them myself of course, but it would be a whole lot easier if I could buy one, the lazy SOB that I am Big Grin

I have searched all over the net, but all I can find are full- and way-too-baggy-sleeved hauberks, with and without integrated coifs... But no mittens at all...

Thanks!



You might want to try Mark at http://www.capapie.co.uk/. His site lists them as a custom piece.

It also looks like Tod at http://www.todsstuff.co.uk has done a couple of them before (they are in the Armoury/Garderobe pics at Dover Castle under Tod Media).
View user's profile Send private message
Bart Zantingh




Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Joined: 05 Jan 2009

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2010 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Hauberk with mittens         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
buy a normal/baggy hauberk and tailor it to fit you well. Then extend the sleeves and weave mittens yourself


I was afraid it would come to that... Confused Oh well, I know how maille works, so I better get to it... Big Grin

Craig Shackleton wrote:
sleeves with mittens need to have the grain of the mail run perpendicular to the grain on the body of the hauberk


That's an interesting notion. You say 'insufficiently researched'. Does that mean you haven't researched at all, or do you think you haven't researched enough to draw conclusions but you do have some sources that gave you the idea? If you do have some sources, what are they? I'd like to investigate it too, because i think it could be a very plausible (and very medieval) thing to do.

Thanks for all the replies!

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

-Matthew 16:24, as used in Pope Urban II's preachings prior to the First Crusade
View user's profile Send private message
Bart Zantingh




Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Joined: 05 Jan 2009

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2010 1:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've checked some pictures and photographs, and there are a few that are interesting...

The effigy of John de Cobham (1354) in Cobham Church, for example. If you look at his arms you can indeed see the maille of the sleeve running perpendicular to the body. The thing is, he doesn't have attached mittens, but wears gauntlets... That doesn't make the sleeves less interesting, though

The effigy of William Fitzralph (1323) in Pebmarsh shows the opposite in sleeve construction, and he does have mittens attached.

It's not nearly enough to be conclusive, but it's a start... Big Grin

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

-Matthew 16:24, as used in Pope Urban II's preachings prior to the First Crusade
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 307

PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2010 5:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So to clarify what I mean by "insufficiently researched":

I've never specifically catalogued any sources, but I've looked at a number of effigies and illustrations. My general sense id that more of them show the grain of the mail running along the arm in such a way that it can compress than show it the other way. I tend to look for this trait every time I see a historical depiction of mail, because it's a pet theory of mine that is often on my mind. In many cases, though, there seems to be artistic license/simplification in the depiction of the mail.

The most common way this happens is that a picture shows the mail in one consistent flat looking grain, so that it looks like the grain is consistent even across a bent arm, much like depictions of plaid on a cartoon character.

Depending on the body position, this has given what I consider false examples both for and against my theory. Those are easy to discount, but in depictions where there is a break in the artwork between the arm and the body, it is sometimes hard to know whether the depiction of the grain is accurate or artistic license. Effigiies are funny for this because the arms are at the side, meaning that if the grain really is perpendicular, in that position it looks parallel, which would also be the easiest way to depict it in a stylized format, and there is pretty much always something covering the area of the shoulder where the change of grain would actually occur.

The other thing is that I don't even know if there are surviving examples of mail that originally had long sleeves and/or mittens. I believe there is not. I have seen other examples of mail with short sleeves that have the grain running the same way modern reproductions do, but that works okay for a shorter sleeve.

I'll take a look at the effigies you found, and thanks for pointing them out.

Ottawa Swordplay
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 307

PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2010 6:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I looked at the effigies you pointed to, and I see what you mean. However, I have doubts about William Fitzralph, mainly because the mail on his body and legs also seem to be running cross grain to how mail is normally depicted and worn. Also, I've seen that this cross-grained mail depiction seems to be a common feature of brass effigies. John deCobham shows how I believe mail looked, but only a small amount is visible due to the amount of plate he wears. I should also mention, that my belief about the grain of mail sleeves applies to any long sleeves, with or without mittens. And honestly, mail that has plate strapped over top is another reason for that! The straps tighten better and the mail is more comfortable if the links can compress around the arm under the strap, which really only works one way.

Here are some effigy examples of stuff I talked about before

Here's an example of cartoon style mail:

Cartoon Mail

Note how the grain doesn't change even when the elbow bends.

Here is an effigy showing the mail as I see it, wearing mittens. Unfortunately, the surcoat and damage to the shoulder of the sculpture obscure how the grain changes.

Here is a strange one; the sleeves seem to follow the modern construction method, but the mittens have a different grain! That's probably the best evidence against my theory I've seen yet.

I'll try to get back to this later. I'm running out of time this morning

Ottawa Swordplay
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bart Zantingh




Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Joined: 05 Jan 2009

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2010 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the John de Cobham effigy:

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/2005%20C...4%2042.jpg


And this the one of William Fitzralph:

http://www.brassrubbings.ca/images/fitzralph.jpg

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

-Matthew 16:24, as used in Pope Urban II's preachings prior to the First Crusade
View user's profile Send private message
Bart Zantingh




Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Joined: 05 Jan 2009

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2010 6:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That 'Cartoon Mail' is really funny Laughing Out Loud ... I think the maker of the effigy first shaped the mail and after that made the contours of the arm...

The Eastwick statue is very interesting, indeed. Although the surcoat and damage are unfortunate, I think it is a definite clue for this riddle Big Grin

And the third one, the one in Basel, is curious, with the different style in the mittens. But it's also the latest, so maybe that's an explanation...?

Could it be all these styles were used? Sleeves with the same grain as the body, sleeves + mittens perpendicular to the body AND sleeves with the same grain, but only the mittens in 'cross-grain'? That it depended primarily on the individual tastes of the wearer?

I don't know, just throwing it out there... Idea Big Grin

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

-Matthew 16:24, as used in Pope Urban II's preachings prior to the First Crusade
View user's profile Send private message
Eric Allen




Location: Texas
Joined: 04 Feb 2006

Posts: 208

PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wouldn't be surprised if both "grains" for the sleeves were used in-period. Perpendicular to the body "fits" better, but keeping the grain (like in modern commercial reproductions) is mechanically easier, since the entire shirt can be made in one piece.

As the owner of a cheap modern mail hauberk, I'll say from my limited experience, the problem is not so much the grain as it is that the sleeves are not tapered at all. take a look at a modern off-the-shelf hauberk; the wrists are the same diameter as the shoulder. This makes it easier to construct (as the sleeve is then a simple tube). But when you put it on and hold out your arms, the extra-wide wrists coupled with the weight of all those excess rings pulling the grain apart, and it looks almost like you have wings.
But if you tailor the sleeves, much of those problems go away.
View user's profile Send private message
Bart Zantingh




Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Joined: 05 Jan 2009

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr, 2010 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Allen wrote:
if you tailor the sleeves, much of those problems go away.


Definitely... But then, you have tot tailor the sleeves if you want to add mittens to them.

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

-Matthew 16:24, as used in Pope Urban II's preachings prior to the First Crusade
View user's profile Send private message
Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: 12 Nov 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,609

PostPosted: Mon 19 Apr, 2010 12:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Shackleton wrote
Quote:
I've never specifically catalogued any sources, but I've looked at a number of effigies and illustrations. My general sense id that more of them show the grain of the mail running along the arm in such a way that it can compress than show it the other way. I tend to look for this trait every time I see a historical depiction of mail, because it's a pet theory of mine that is often on my mind. In many cases, though, there seems to be artistic license/simplification in the depiction of the mail.


I think that what you implying is that the 'material' of the mail is constructed on the bias. Bias cutting of fabric has the effect of allowing the material to hang more radically than is the case with fabric that is cut conventionally. 1920's flapper dresses were famously cut on the bias so that they created a very figure hugging effect. Imagine you have a square of cloth cut from a roll and it is laid out in front of you. Put your sleeve pattern on the fabric so that the top of the shoulder and the back of the wrist parts of the pattern are along the centreline of the fabric. If you cut the sleeve now it would be just like your shirt sleeve, ie a conventional cut.

If however you turned your pattern 45 degrees either way and then cut your sleeve, it would be cut on the bias. This would create a really odd shirt that clung to your body in a very inelegant way.

I do not wear maille but I have a feeling that a sleeve that is tight and clings to your arm could well cut down on material flapping around and generally making control easier and reducing tiredness, so your observation seems to make sense to me.

As was pointed out earlier I have supplied a couple of maille hauberks with the coif and mittens built in. This was a specific request of English Heritage and I was pretty sure that they were not available off the shelf so I looked a bit to make sure then embarked on making them. I bought GDFB round link rivetted skirts and shirts and coifs and a pair of parrallel action water pump pliers and drilled the jaws to make a pair of rivet sets for the 1/32" rivets and set a friend onto the job. As far as I know these items are only available as custom orders so if you want one get the pliers out. This was part of a larger contract, it is not something I would supply on its own.

As an observation though they are very claustrophobic things. With the coif in place, the enclosed hands and the down to the ankle length the weight is obviously very considerable and with only my wife to help me get it on and off (who has no experience of handling maille) it was all very entangling. Not and easy item to wear as a one piece.

www.todsworkshop.com
www.todcutler.com
www.instagram.com/todsworkshop
www.facebook.com/TodTodeschini
www.youtube.com/todsworkshop
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 307

PostPosted: Mon 19 Apr, 2010 5:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No, I'm familiar with bias-cut fabric, and that definitely would not work with mail. Linen chausses/hosen are often cut on the bias to make them more form-fitting. My wife used to be a seamstress/costume designer and has made a few bias-cut flapper dresses as well.

Mail hangs differently in one direction than the other. In one direction the mail can pull in and gather. On a mail shirt, the grain is pretty much always hung so that it gathers around the body, making it pretty form fitting, even if it is basically rectangular. But if the arms are made in a 'T' shape and the grain is just extended the same direction, the mail can't gather in the same way around the arms.

It is also this difference in direction of hang that makes bias cut mail really weird and impossible. The mail would be asymmetrical and would gather in some places on the diagonal.

So what I am talking about is that when a mail shirt is laid out in a 'T,' the sleeves would be attached with the grain at 90 degrees to the body. Although I suspect that one way to make the join would be a diagonal connection seam between the body and arms that connects to the neck-hole.

After looking more closely at the effigies though, I am now starting to wonder if they might have been built with the sleeve laid out parallel to the body, and then just connected over the top of the shoulder.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time, money, or energy to try and build a bunch of mail shirts using my hypothetical patterns to see if they would work.

Ottawa Swordplay
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Mon 19 Apr, 2010 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Shackleton wrote:
Unfortunately, I don't have the time, money, or energy to try and build a bunch of mail shirts using my hypothetical patterns to see if they would work.


No need. There are mailers out there that can supply three kinds of hauberks. T-shirt hauberks like you would usually find. Hauberks with the arm weave at 90 degrees from the body, and tubular. Tubular hauberks are basically three tubes next to each other. Two for the arms and one for the body. They are joined at the top by a coif with a bishops mantle. The grain on the arms runs the same way as the 90 degree offset arm grain design, but if you lay this hauberk flat on the ground, the arms point down, parallel to the body. They don't point to the sides.

I have a link somewhere of a mailer who can supply all three designs, but I can't find it at the moment.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Tue 20 Apr, 2010 11:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have found the link of the mailer that supplies hauberks with three different kinds of sleeve attachment. It's Knuut from WeldedChainmail.com. Here are the hauberks.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 307

PostPosted: Wed 21 Apr, 2010 4:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Sander, that's exactly what I was talking about. Those three variants are exactly the three variants I was talking about.
Ottawa Swordplay
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Hauberk with mittens
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum