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Patrick Gilbers





Joined: 25 Oct 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 22 Mar, 2010 10:04 am    Post subject: Plumbatae         Reply with quote

Hi,

does anyone know when exactly the first plumbatae were used? For I have heard that they were actually developped by the Greeks and that the Romans adopted them afterwards. Others say that it was developped by the Romans in the 3rd - 4th century AD.

Thanks in advance!
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Mar, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Patrick
Development in the fourth century.
The literary sources are scarce.
Talk about it, Vegetius, ( II, 15, 16, III, 14). In use by the light infantry
In De Rebus Bellicis (10.11) describes 2 types of Plumbata:
"Plumbata Mamillata" normal
"Plumbata tribolata", with three spikes protruding from leaden weight of which was equipped with the plumb.
The Plumbata was in use until the sixth century, yet, Maurizio mentions in Strategikon. (XII, II, 2)
Developed by the Greeks? From these sources is not.



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Maurizio
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 22 Mar, 2010 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vegetius reckons that it was developed late 3rd century. Alternate name is martiobarbuli. Some tetrarchic legions are noted for being skilled with this weapon.

This has some useful info
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1689
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Mar, 2010 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Vegetius reckons that it was developed late 3rd century. Alternate name is martiobarbuli. Some tetrarchic legions are noted for being skilled with this weapon.

This has some useful info
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1689

I want to add
"Mattiobarbuli" were the two legions of soldiers to 6,000 troops stationed in Illyricum , they were very skillful in the use of these weapons. They used to bring into the shield 5 Mattiobarbuli, their range was about 70-80 meters.
From these, this word has broadened its meaning.
A support for the archers. Late imperial army is preparing for large changes in the sixth century.

Ciao
Maurizio
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Mar, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How do I use those things? Do I toss it like a dart for a dart board, or is there some kind of launcher?

M.

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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Mar, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
How do I use those things? Do I toss it like a dart for a dart board, or is there some kind of launcher?

M.


could kill.



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Maurizio
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Mar, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ya, think lawn darts Happy

they do serious damage to on coming horses
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Mar, 2010 6:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah yes, lawn darts. That was a -fantastic- idea for a child's toy, wasn't it Razz

Thanks for the image though. Oddly had the notion that you tried to play darts with the enemy army as your target board. I'm assuming those spiked ones acted as long distance on-demand caltdrops too...pretty ingenious!

M.

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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Mar, 2010 7:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
ya, think lawn darts Happy

they do serious damage to on coming horses


"Plumbata" falling without hitting a target, in ground, could hurt their feet.
Units were light infantry and skirmishers to annoy the enemy, encouraging an early attack and disorganized.
Heavy infantry opened the gates, which were shut as soon as they came back.
Often enemies were raging, violent, fearless, but little tactical.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

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PostPosted: Thu 25 Mar, 2010 1:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An important point (hehehe) of this missile weapon is that it's parabolical. Combine them with a few archers in almost horizontal shooting (50-80 meters) and the enemy must choose what weapon will stop with his shield...and thus being vulnerable to the another ...

Of course, an organized enemy can solve this with a good array of shields.
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Gabriele C.




Location: Roma,Italia
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PostPosted: Thu 25 Mar, 2010 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In a recent book about roman army, written by Cascarino, there's a pretty good description of plumbatae, but i saw Maurizio have already posted a few images from the book. I think the effective range was probably 50m and it's almost sure Plumbatae didn't came from greek warfare.
my blog
http://zweilawyer.wordpress.com/
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 25 Mar, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
An important point (hehehe) of this missile weapon is that it's parabolical.

I knew this
Iagoba Ferreira wrote:

Combine them with a few archers in almost horizontal shooting (50-80 meters) and the enemy must choose what weapon will stop with his shield...and thus being vulnerable to the another ...

I never thought of this. Very interesting


Gabriele C. wrote:
In a recent book about roman army, written by Cascarino, there's a pretty good description of plumbatae, but i saw Maurizio have already posted a few images from the book. I think the effective range was probably 50m and it's almost sure Plumbatae didn't came from greek warfare.


Ave Gabriele,
you are right, the title is Esercito Romano by Cascarino. Also Strategikon is by Cascarino.
I think 50 meters more real, maybe just the two famous legions pulled so far, have remained popular to this.

Ciao
Maurizio
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