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Jeffrey Mallia





Joined: 12 Mar 2010

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 9:02 am    Post subject: Sword queiry         Reply with quote

Hi my name is Jeffrey and I am from the island of Malta. I am not only new to this forum but also new to militaria collecting in general. About two weeks ago I bought my first sword at a local auction and since than I have been trying to find out whether this sword is original or not (as the auctioneer did not know himself). Can anyone please help me out to identify whether this sword is an original, what its age is and what is it named? It is very similar to the sword of another forum member (Olivier L-Beaulieu), who also happens to have a topic posted asking nearly the same thing (I did not want to hijack his thread). Excuse me for the many pictures included but I am trying to make it as easy as possible for any of you to get a clear impression of it. The blade is not particularly sharp although I think with a powerful slash or thrust it can cause damage anyway. Also what is strange is that it has no makers marks anywhere. I disassembled it and the locking nuts are metric (10 on the outside brass one and 11 on the inside metallic one). The blade is metal as magnets do get stuck to it. The blade itself measures 37 inches and together with the handle they measure 43 inches. Also someone has tampered with the back piece of the handle as it has clearly been filed. The scabbard is metal too and it has some rust on it but the blade has no rust at all. As a last thing, I am not sure but I don't think swords were made to be disassamblable, but as I said I am still new to all this so I can be wrong. The following are pictures of the sword in question.

















If I find out that this is a replica I will go ahead and sharpen it and give the handle a leather covering but I don't want to risk messing up something I don't know anything about only to regret it afterwards. Thanks to all of you for bearing this out with me and thanks in advance for any who might help me solve this problem out.
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Jeffrey Mallia





Joined: 12 Mar 2010

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 9:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the filed back of the handle grip as I forgot to post a specific picture of it.

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Gerald Fa.





Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 9:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hummmm. I may be wrong, but I think it MAY not be original; I do not think sowrds in the 1700s or 1800s AD had rat tale tangs. I do know swords before the 1700s did not have rate tale tangs, but I would think the same with 1800s as well.

I think rat tales are a modern thing in most swords, which I think is not good to have...

If you want a well made modern sword, you want a full tang sword... And also if you want a original, having a full tang is a start.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,172

PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 9:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gerald Fa. wrote:
Hummmm. I may be wrong, but I think it MAY not be original; I do not think sowrds in the 1700s or 1800s AD had rat tale tangs. I do know swords before the 1700s did not have rate tale tangs, but I would think the same with 1800s as well.

I think rat tales are a modern thing in most swords, which I think is not good to have...

If you want a good sword, you want a full tang sword...


Yes the tang is what makes it look the most like a modern reproduction.

Yes later period swords could be disassembled or at least assembled using a nut and screw assembly but metric is at the earliest late 18th century ( Googling metric system to get the dates of adoption of this standard in Europe Wink ): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system

Anyway, welcome to the site. Big Grin Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jeffrey Mallia





Joined: 12 Mar 2010

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To tell you the truth I did google a lot and the closest match I found was that this is an 1821 pattern sword used extensively in the Crimean and American civil wars. If this is true than I am happy with that but I can't for the life of me know if it's a copy. Do you know whether such swords had a full tang or not? Thanks you for welcoming me to the site Happy Also do all original swords of this era have marking or date of issue?
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is a replica sword based on the British P1821, probably made in India.
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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Mr Hopkins, sorry. Not an actual antique based on what I see in the pictures. TR
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Jeffrey Mallia





Joined: 12 Mar 2010

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 11:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So seeing as it is probably a replica and not even a kind of ceremonial sword, my next couple of questions on it are:

a) Was I duped on the price I bought it for (80 Euros) or do such replicas actually fetch such a price?
b) Also how do I go about giving it a cutting edge
c) Is it possible to substitute the bottom bit of the rat tail tang (I am thinking of breaking off the screw part and welding to it a further piece of metal to make up for it) and try to pin it in place like how a real one should be? If so, than how can I achieve this? Will it be servicable or will it just break off from the welding, potentially injuring someone?
d) Where do I find original looking covers for the handle bit to imitate the original covers I see on every sword type resembling mine and how do I go about gluing it in place?
e) Does the handle need to be filled or secured any further, as it is not wobbly but it seems it does have a bit of space inside the channel the tang goes through.

Thanks for shedding light on this item and helping me out. Now at least I know that by polishing it and taking off the rust of the scabbard I won't be messing up with a real antique weapon.
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Sat 13 Mar, 2010 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

a)80 euros is not THAT big a price for a replica that more or less looks like real thing and will not break apart if you take a swing with it.
b)that might be harder or easier depending on existant edge, best would be to try out yoru hand at sharpening on couple of cheap knives/machetes.
c)welded on bit will never be qute as strong as real thing would have been - but as long as you do not plant o do any real cuting it should not really matter.
d) and e) would be best answered by someone more knowledgable about this type of swords.
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