Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Carrying Bucklers Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Colin L





Joined: 07 Mar 2010

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Carrying Bucklers         Reply with quote

Hi there,

Does anyone know how a buckler would have been carried? I've seen many pictures of men wearing bucklers on the hip, but I've no idea how it was attached. Was there some sort of harness?
View user's profile Send private message
Felix R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Reading list: 25 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It´s just a guess, but I could imagine a string, looped around the handle and suspended rom the belt.
View user's profile Send private message
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 843

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello!

Elling Polden posted a relevant explanation a while ago:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=109424#109424

Hope this helps,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix R. wrote:
It´s just a guess, but I could imagine a string, looped around the handle and suspended rom the belt.


Leather thong... looped around the handle and suspended from the sword hilt.

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
View user's profile Send private message
Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 447

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 3:02 pm    Post subject: hook?         Reply with quote

I would think that a belt hook of some kind, riveted to the buckler itself, would do the trick. I have not seen iconographic evidence of this, as we never see the backside of the buckler, but a hook is less of a hindrance . No need to untie any knots.
Bon coeur et bon bras
View user's profile Send private message
David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: hook?         Reply with quote

Jean-Carle Hudon wrote:
I would think that a belt hook of some kind, riveted to the buckler itself, would do the trick. I have not seen iconographic evidence of this, as we never see the backside of the buckler, but a hook is less of a hindrance . No need to untie any knots.


Knots? What knots? The buckler hangs from the sword hilt via a leather loop or thong and can be lifted off the hilt by pulling the buckler up. Gravity keeps it in place just fine and you can even run with one suspended like this. I've been doing it for years now.

Taken 8 or so years ago.



Taken 5 or years ago



Taken 3 years ago



Cheers,

DT

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
View user's profile Send private message
Mark T




PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's Elling's post in the thread linked above. I think he makes a good case for suspending it from the scabbard itself, rather than the hilt ... and the need to be able to 'quick draw' both at once:

Elling Polden wrote:
The best way to carry the buckler is by means of a leather strap that is paralel to the handle.
This is passed over the top of the scabbard, before the sword is inserted.

Thus, the sword and buckler can be drawn at the same time. The same can be done with a simple loop around the handle, but this means there is a risk of the buckler bouncing around and twining itself up.

The preserved norwegian bucklers have this kind of suspension.


Later in that thread, Nils Anderssen posts a photo of what this strap looks like.

Cheers,
Mark T
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,178

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 5:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Here's Elling's post in the thread linked above. I think he makes a good case for suspending it from the scabbard itself, rather than the hilt ... and the need to be able to 'quick draw' both at once:

Elling Polden wrote:
The best way to carry the buckler is by means of a leather strap that is paralel to the handle.
This is passed over the top of the scabbard, before the sword is inserted.

Thus, the sword and buckler can be drawn at the same time. The same can be done with a simple loop around the handle, but this means there is a risk of the buckler bouncing around and twining itself up.

The preserved norwegian bucklers have this kind of suspension.


Later in that thread, Nils Anderssen posts a photo of what this strap looks like.

Cheers,
Mark T


Quote:
" This is passed over the top of the scabbard, before the sword is inserted. "
This also means that the buckler doesn't interfere with pulling the sword first and then pulling the buckler off the top of the scabbard. If the buckler strap is looped over the handle of the sword I think it might slow things down as one would have to take the buckler first before being able to access the sword ? Pulling both almost at the same time is O.K. but I think it makes more tactical sense to be able to pull the sword first or by itself in a surprise attack ?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 5:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Here's Elling's post in the thread linked above. I think he makes a good case for suspending it from the scabbard itself, rather than the hilt ... and the need to be able to 'quick draw' both at once:

Elling Polden wrote:
The best way to carry the buckler is by means of a leather strap that is paralel to the handle.
This is passed over the top of the scabbard, before the sword is inserted.

Thus, the sword and buckler can be drawn at the same time. The same can be done with a simple loop around the handle, but this means there is a risk of the buckler bouncing around and twining itself up.

The preserved norwegian bucklers have this kind of suspension.


Later in that thread, Nils Anderssen posts a photo of what this strap looks like.

Cheers,
Mark T


I had missed Vincent's post as I was posting at the same time. I don't see a problem with the Quick Draw concept... I'll have to play with it.

Cheers,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
View user's profile Send private message
Mark T




PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Teague wrote:
I don't see a problem with the Quick Draw concept... I'll have to play with it.


How about we both play with it, and then square off at ten paces ... Big Grin
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,178

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
David Teague wrote:
I don't see a problem with the Quick Draw concept... I'll have to play with it.


How about we both play with it, and then square off at ten paces ... Big Grin


If not quick draw it should be a smooth draw in that one doesn't want awkward tangling of strap on sword handle and/or having unnecessary fumbling or fumbling prone actions: So the way the buckler is carried might be more subtle than just looped over the handle ?

Any period iconography we might look at more closely to see exactly how and on what part of the sword handle/scabbard ?

Most times the buckler itself is hiding the carrying method(s). Wink Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I always thought (perhaps stupidly) that, assuming there was space, one could/would simply hang the buckler from the sword by slipping the bucklers handle over the swords handle. This is of course assuming earlier models methinks. Confused
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,178

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 6:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam Gordon Campbell wrote:
I always thought (perhaps stupidly) that, assuming there was space, one could/would simply hang the buckler from the sword by slipping the bucklers handle over the swords handle. This is of course assuming earlier models methinks. Confused


Usually there are a few inches of scabbard above the suspension system on which the buckler handle or a strap parallel to the handle could loop over, so I just thought that this would be more versatile, as explained in my previous posts, than looping over the handle.

Looping over the handle would also work I just think is has disadvantages. Wink

Is the handle far enough from the back face of the buckler for the sword handle to easily slip through ? But then a large or thick pommel might make this impossible or make taking the buckler off the handle slow and goof prone.

I'm just thinking this over in terms of design and tactics supporting historical proof is something else. Wink Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Mark T




PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 6:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Any period iconography we might look at more closely to see exactly how and on what part of the sword handle/scabbard ?


There are a lot of images in this article (and the following two parts it links to): www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBuckler.htm

I'm wondering if that fantastic site that Sean has posted about a few times would have them tagged?:

Sean Flynt wrote:
This is the best resource I know of:

http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/realonline/

Choose "Materielle Objekte" from the drop-down menu.

Enter the date range in the "Von" and "Bis" boxes (From and To)

Click "Auswählen

In the search box at the bottom of th new page, enter the German name of a common military object. I suggest "helm".

Click "Zeige Bilder"

This action will call up all the artwork for that period that includes a helmet. That will give you an amazing variety of arms and armour from which to choose, and you won't have to wonder about authenticity. Many of the paintings are accompanied by individual images of details, often of clothing, arms and armour.


Beyond that, does anyone know if this issue is discussed in Paul Wagner & Stephen Hand's Medieval sword and shield (http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.1891448439.html), or in Dave Rawling's I33 DVD's (http://fightmedieval.com/store)? I don't have either yet.
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,178

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 6:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well one of the pics in the link shows the buckler below that handle of the sword and although one can't be sure how it's suspended it is obviously not suspended on the handle of the sword but attached to the scabbard or sword belt near the scabbard with the rim of the buckler just a hair below the guard.

www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBuckler.htm

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Mark T




PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 6:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are a couple of contenders from that piece, but the details are a bit hard to make out:


 Attachment: 12.49 KB
f076.jpg


 Attachment: 14.92 KB
frenchc1317LegendedeStDenis.jpg


 Attachment: 40.22 KB
TheLifeofStDenis1317.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,908

PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was recently fortunate enough to view good photos of an English buckler of ca. 1600. There are some working life changes, but one of the most intriguing aspects of the buckler is what appears to be its original grip, which stretches almost the entire diamter of the buckler. It's wooden, carved and shaped somewhat like a suspension bridge, sloping at each end. Inset into one of those sloping ends is what appears to be the remains of a suspension strap. If you were holding the buckler with that side at the 6 o'clock position I think the strap would have been shaped like a long drop of a viscous liquid, with the narrow pointed end set flush into the wood, secured with a domed tack at its narrowest end and a flathead screw (later?) in the middle and dividing into two straps below that screw. The divided straps are now torn off, so I don't know if this was a single piece of leather cut to make a continuous loop to fit over a sword hilt or scabbard mouth, or if the divided straps became laces to be be tied or buckled over a belt. Either way, this clearly does seem to be some form of suspension.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,908

PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A sketch of the Royal Armouries buckler I saw (can't post photos--sorry!):


 Attachment: 197.65 KB
strap.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark Shier
Industry Professional




Joined: 27 Mar 2005

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 2:59 pm    Post subject: hanging bucklers         Reply with quote

There is a type of medieval belt hook that works very well for hanging a buckler. This one is from my collection, and would fit a 3/4" belt.


 Attachment: 10.92 KB
phb03_01.jpg


Gaukler Medieval Wares
http://www.medievalwares.com
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Carrying Bucklers
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum