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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Mar, 2010 10:47 pm    Post subject: Strange helmet         Reply with quote

This helmet is for sale in japan...any ideas about what it is?
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Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 08 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Mar, 2010 11:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks like a Ming Chinese or Ming-era Chinese-style kettle-hat.

Robinson, "Oriental armour" has a drawing of a Korean example, late 16th century (the same helmet is probably on plate 34 in Boots's paper, J. L. Boots, Korean weapons and armor, Transactions of the Korea Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society 23(2), 1-37 (1934). There are also Ming examples from the time; a google images search for "wanli helmet" will bring up such a helmet (and associated armour) that supposedly belonged to the Ming Emperor Wanli.

The Japanese took back quite a bit of loot from Hideyoshi's Korean war, and in the early-mid 20th century, there was probably more Korean armour in Japan than in Korea. So if the helmet is old, it could be Korean or MIng from the late 16th century, part of this loot. If not old, it could be a copy of such.

I don't know if the Manchus/Qing used these helmets; the only examples I've seen pictures of are Ming or Ming-era Korean.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 805

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Timo Nieminen wrote:
It looks like a Ming Chinese or Ming-era Chinese-style kettle-hat.

Robinson, "Oriental armour" has a drawing of a Korean example, late 16th century (the same helmet is probably on plate 34 in Boots's paper, J. L. Boots, Korean weapons and armor, Transactions of the Korea Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society 23(2), 1-37 (1934). There are also Ming examples from the time; a google images search for "wanli helmet" will bring up such a helmet (and associated armour) that supposedly belonged to the Ming Emperor Wanli.

The Japanese took back quite a bit of loot from Hideyoshi's Korean war, and in the early-mid 20th century, there was probably more Korean armour in Japan than in Korea. So if the helmet is old, it could be Korean or MIng from the late 16th century, part of this loot. If not old, it could be a copy of such.

I don't know if the Manchus/Qing used these helmets; the only examples I've seen pictures of are Ming or Ming-era Korean.
Timo, I did see the Korean look at the top, but the rest of it looked strange. Thanks for the info, and your right about korea being stripped, Ian Bottomley recently said this
Quote:
A few years ago, the author Stephen Turnbull scoured Korea for arms and armour and drew a blank, other than cannon, even in the bigger museums. The place has been occupied and fought over so many times there is nothing left. We have a Korean helmet in the Royal Armouries and a Japanese helmet made from a Korean / Chinese helmet bowl. Other than a complete armour in Chicago, I know of little else.
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Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 08 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It isn't like the Japanese took everything in 1598. After all, they lost the war, and could only take what they could get earlier, or while they were leaving.

A big difference is that the Japanese preserved old arms. There are still weapons from the 8th century in the Shosoin Repository. Families kept stuff, including from Hideyoshi's Korean war, as mementos of past triumph and glory.

Meanwhile, in Korea and China, arms were used until worn out or obsolete, then discarded as old junk. Add to that the low status of the military profession, and you get little in the way of preservation. Made much worse (at least so the story goes) in Korea by the Japanese during the Japanese colonial period deliberately taking or destroying historical artifacts, especially any that might remind the Koreans of their independence and their victory over the Japanese in Hideyoshi's war. In China, you had the Cultural Revolution.

Consider the arms in Europe that are either grave goods or memorials in churches. What else survived that wasn't dug up our dredged out of a river, at least until we have surviving arsenals? With samurai households functioning in the same manner as church memorials, we have more survivals of old arms.

One interesting thing about this kind of helmet is that there is one that is supposed to have belonged to the Ming Emperor. Did Henry VIII own any personal kettle-hats? Did James I? (Elizabeth I would be the most contemporary - did she have any personal armour?)
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 805

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Timo Nieminen wrote:
It looks like a Ming Chinese or Ming-era Chinese-style kettle-hat.

Robinson, "Oriental armour" has a drawing of a Korean example, late 16th century (the same helmet is probably on plate 34 in Boots's paper, J. L. Boots, Korean weapons and armor, Transactions of the Korea Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society 23(2), 1-37 (1934). There are also Ming examples from the time; a google images search for "wanli helmet" will bring up such a helmet (and associated armour) that supposedly belonged to the Ming Emperor Wanli.

The Japanese took back quite a bit of loot from Hideyoshi's Korean war, and in the early-mid 20th century, there was probably more Korean armour in Japan than in Korea. So if the helmet is old, it could be Korean or MIng from the late 16th century, part of this loot. If not old, it could be a copy of such.

I don't know if the Manchus/Qing used these helmets; the only examples I've seen pictures of are Ming or Ming-era Korean.
Here are some more pictures http://www.japanauctioncenter.com/view2.php?s...d102584872 Timo, your right, the Japanese did a great job when it came to preserving their historic artifacts, up until now.....it seems that there is a constant flow of items coming from Japan, it cant last forever.
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Daniel Sullivan




Location: California
Joined: 02 Apr 2004
Likes: 11 pages

Posts: 211

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject: Strange Helmet         Reply with quote

Really like to see this sort of item pop up.

Tend to think it is Korean as I have two helmets from that era. One is very close to fig. 7, page 329, Stone and is extremely heavy, about 3/8 of inch or more in thickness and had been redone to a Japanese style. The shikoro is long gone, but a few traces of the fastening remain in about a dozen paired holes.

The other, not modified in any way, is about 2/3 the weight of the first has and the top is an exact match for the one Eric posted. However, the sides slope about 60 degrees to the base and it does not have a chapel type rim, rather a small, but stout visor like projection in front (similar to fig 74 page 57, Stone). Also a series of over 30 holes around the base for hanging some sort of protection. Thought for many years it might be from Nepal or Tibet, but finally threw in the towel and paid for an appraisal.

Regards,
Dan
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 805

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 8:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Strange Helmet         Reply with quote

Daniel Sullivan wrote:
Really like to see this sort of item pop up.

Tend to think it is Korean as I have two helmets from that era. One is very close to fig. 7, page 329, Stone and is extremely heavy, about 3/8 of inch or more in thickness and had been redone to a Japanese style. The shikoro is long gone, but a few traces of the fastening remain in about a dozen paired holes.

The other, not modified in any way, is about 2/3 the weight of the first has and the top is an exact match for the one Eric posted. However, the sides slope about 60 degrees to the base and it does not have a chapel type rim, rather a small, but stout visor like projection in front (similar to fig 74 page 57, Stone). Also a series of over 30 holes around the base for hanging some sort of protection. Thought for many years it might be from Nepal or Tibet, but finally threw in the towel and paid for an appraisal.

Regards,
Dan
Dan, Korean armor of any kind is rare, do you have any pictures? I would love to see them.
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Daniel Sullivan




Location: California
Joined: 02 Apr 2004
Likes: 11 pages

Posts: 211

PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject: Strange Helmet         Reply with quote

Unfortunately I have not dragged my duff into the 21st century, still cling to my Canon AE1. rely on a friend with a scanner when the need arises. Wiil have to dig a bit to find what I have.

Have liquidated the majority of my Asian collection, but have a few bits left. A few years ago I sold my last suit of Japanese armor (Myochin) to a gentleman in Iwakuni Japan. Hope he is enjoying a product of his homeland as muich as i am enojoying a product of Germany!

Cheers,
Dan
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 805

PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Strange Helmet         Reply with quote

Daniel Sullivan wrote:
Unfortunately I have not dragged my duff into the 21st century, still cling to my Canon AE1. rely on a friend with a scanner when the need arises. Wiil have to dig a bit to find what I have.

Have liquidated the majority of my Asian collection, but have a few bits left. A few years ago I sold my last suit of Japanese armor (Myochin) to a gentleman in Iwakuni Japan. Hope he is enjoying a product of his homeland as muich as i am enojoying a product of Germany!

Cheers,
Dan
Dan, you are the only person I have heard of who has sold an armor to someone in Japan, usually its the other way around, the Japanese seem to want to drain the country of every historical item they can, that gave me a laugh Wink I finally broke down and got a digital camera with a storage card, I cant believe I waited so long! They are great..plus no more film.
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