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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Tue 02 Mar, 2010 10:45 am    Post subject: Longsword Class Video         Reply with quote

Scholars

The following is a video from a longsword class by John Clements with the ARMA Athens study group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmUqhrcSkY4


Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 244

PostPosted: Tue 02 Mar, 2010 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Longsword Class Video         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Scholars

The following is a video from a longsword class by John Clements with the ARMA Athens study group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmUqhrcSkY4


Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


Thanks for posting this Randall. I get a lot out of ARMA's videos and find them personally to be helpful and thought provoking. It's always good to see you guys put your stuff out there for everyone to see.

Thanks Again.

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing.

The action being shown in the video looks a lot like the Rose (as discussed here) from the later German tradition.

Is this an interpretation of the Rose? If so are the interpretations of the techniques from the Rose also available. My colleagues at Forte and I worked on this last year and I was only satisfied with one of the techniques.

If it's not the Rose then I am interested as to what source it comes from and what technique it represents.

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven,

I thought the "Rose" was a descriptive phrase of a technique that resembles a small circular motion with the tip of the sword moving from right to left or from left to right meant to get on the other side of your opponents blade in order to gain leverage. Correct me if I'm wrong.

What I thought what this video demonstrated was the efficient execution of an unterhau and/or winden.

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
Thanks for sharing.

The action being shown in the video looks a lot like the Rose (as discussed here) from the later German tradition.

Is this an interpretation of the Rose? If so are the interpretations of the techniques from the Rose also available. My colleagues at Forte and I worked on this last year and I was only satisfied with one of the techniques.

If it's not the Rose then I am interested as to what source it comes from and what technique it represents.

Cheers,
Steven


Steven

I'm going to say no to you question because John Clements is acturally doing many many things in the video. In the video John is not teaching a single technique, rather he is teaching students how to move and cut, which gives them the bases to understand specific techniques. In the video John performs most of the master cuts, including his interpretation of the Krumphau. Around 1:50 in the video you'll notice that John is moving into and out of Fiore's Bicorno guard. In the ARMA interpretation of Fiore Bicorno is not seen as just a place from which you can thrust, it also represents the end of a cut and of course a position from which you can cut. As shown in the video moving into and out of Bicorno should be a fast dynamic action. I did notice a major difference between the two videos. In his video Jeff Tsay is cutting with his long edge by droping it off to his right side. John Clements, on the other hand, is cutting with his short edge, which is what allows John to quickly make all 16 possible cuts. For several years now the 16 cut drill has been the core drill for ARMA.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen Foster wrote:
Steven,

I thought the "Rose" was a descriptive phrase of a technique that resembles a small circular motion with the tip of the sword moving from right to left or from left to right meant to get on the other side of your opponents blade in order to gain leverage. Correct me if I'm wrong.

What I thought what this video demonstrated was the efficient execution of an unterhau and/or winden.


Allen-
The action you are describing is more consistent with what I believe the Wheel to be. The connection between those two techniques is one that I'm not sure about - if I'm remembering correctly some sources use the term Rose for the Wheel while others use the term Rose for a different technique. As the Wheel is a "minor" technique in the system I have not yet systematically looked at it myself.

The link I included includes the specifics on the source for our interpretation of the Rose.

I'm not a fan of this for an unterhau in general - that is to say my usual unterhau would not be this one but the one illustrated in the video does have it's uses. I do actually believe that the Rose techniques are a better application of those mechanics then to replace for the usual unterhau.

I'm not sure how see this technique as winden - can you clarify?

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Steven H




Location: Boston
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Posts: 545

PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
I'm going to say no to you question because John Clements is acturally doing many many things in the video.

However, the video is titled, "Vertical Rising Cut" and that action is about half the video and that's what I was addressing with my question about the Rose.

Randall Pleasant wrote:
In the video John is not teaching a single technique, rather he is teaching students how to move and cut, which gives them the bases to understand specific techniques. In the video John performs most of the master cuts, including his interpretation of the Krumphau.

Can you give me the time index for the krump in that video?

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Around 1:50 in the video you'll notice that John is moving into and out of Fiore's Bicorno guard. In the ARMA interpretation of Fiore Bicorno is not seen as just a place from which you can thrust, it also represents the end of a cut and of course a position from which you can cut. As shown in the video moving into and out of Bicorno should be a fast dynamic action.

I've always heard Fioreistas talk about the Posta as positions to start and end cuts and all other actions, such as in Guy Windsor's '04 book Swordsman's Companion (p. 68). So this isn't really noteworthy.

Randall Pleasant wrote:
I did notice a major difference between the two videos. In his video Jeff Tsay is cutting with his long edge by droping it off to his right side. John Clements, on the other hand, is cutting with his short edge, which is what allows John to quickly make all 16 possible cuts. For several years now the 16 cut drill has been the core drill for ARMA.

I rewatched the video over and over again and cannot find the vertical rising cut performed with a short edge attack. Can you provide the time index for it?

I don't expect you to speak for John Clements but do you know the answer to my question, "If it's not the Rose then . . . what source [does] it comes from and what technique [does] it represent?"

Also, what is the "16 cut drill"? All eight angles with the short and long edge like Meyer's longsword and dussack drills?

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 11:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
However, the video is titled, "Vertical Rising Cut" and that action is about half the video and that's what I was addressing with my question about the Rose.

Steve

The Rose may include a rising vertical cut but not every rising vertical cut is the Rose. John is teaching students how to cut a rising vertical cut so that they can actually understand specific techniques, such as the Rose, when they encounter them.

Quote:
Can you give me the time index for the krump in that video?

Around 1:44, you'll hear him say "crooked" as he cuts.

Quote:
I've always heard Fioreistas talk about the Posta as positions to start and end cuts and all other actions, such as in Guy Windsor's '04 book Swordsman's Companion (p. 68). So this isn't really noteworthy.

True. But while cutting the master cuts? Wink ARMA has long held that there is only European longswordmanship, one art with some variations by regions and masters.

Quote:
I rewatched the video over and over again and cannot find the vertical rising cut performed with a short edge attack. Can you provide the time index for it?

Almost all of the rising vertical cuts are made with the false edge. Watch in slow motion (or steps) the cut starting at 0:29.

Quote:
I don't expect you to speak for John Clements but do you know the answer to my question, "If it's not the Rose then . . . what source [does] it comes from and what technique [does] it represent?"

In what John is showing it could represent cutting back from a Scheitelhau. Throughout the video John cuts a Scheitelhau and then cuts up and just continues the cut all the way around. Thus, a rising vertical cut is just the reverse of a Scheitelhau.

Quote:
Also, what is the "16 cut drill"? All eight angles with the short and long edge like Meyer's longsword and dussack drills?

Yes, one can cut along each of the eight lines with either the long or short edge giving a total of 16 cuts. What's important to understand is that the master cuts gives us all 16 cuts, nothing else is needed beyond the master cuts. The 16 cut drill (see video link below) has long served as the core drill for ARMA.

http://www.thearma.org/Videos/SFF/000_0474.MOV


Ran Pleasant
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Quote:
Can you give me the time index for the krump in that video?

Around 1:44, you'll hear him say "crooked" as he cuts.

But that cut isn't a krump.

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Quote:
I've always heard Fioreistas talk about the Posta as positions to start and end cuts and all other actions, such as in Guy Windsor's '04 book Swordsman's Companion (p. 68). So this isn't really noteworthy.

True. But while cutting the master cuts? Wink ARMA has long held that there is only European longswordmanship, one art with some variations by regions and masters.

So what. No one else cuts German cuts from an Italian guard. Show me those actions in any manual and I'll consider them relevant. Otherwise they are modern eclectic.

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Quote:
I rewatched the video over and over again and cannot find the vertical rising cut performed with a short edge attack. Can you provide the time index for it?

Almost all of the rising vertical cuts are made with the false edge. Watch in slow motion (or steps) the cut starting at 0:29.

Nope. That one's long edge. Try again.

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Quote:
I don't expect you to speak for John Clements but do you know the answer to my question, "If it's not the Rose then . . . what source [does] it comes from and what technique [does] it represent?"

In what John is showing it could represent cutting back from a Scheitelhau. Throughout the video John cuts a Scheitelhau and then cuts up and just continues the cut all the way around. Thus, a rising vertical cut is just the reverse of a Scheitelhau.

I take it then that the answer to my question is that it doesn't come from any source unless you mean Meyer's cutting drills.

So the material in this video is a mixture of modern eclectic and stuff from Joachim Meyer's 1570 manual. Okay.

-Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
Randall Pleasant wrote:
Almost all of the rising vertical cuts are made with the false edge. Watch in slow motion (or steps) the cut starting at 0:29.

Nope. That one's long edge. Try again.

Actually no, it's just that due to the right hand rotating around the grip, what was the short edge in the initial position becomes the long edge in the ending position. The sword moves only in the plane of its edges in this example.

I personally wouldn't call that a short edge cut but I guess that's what Randall meant.

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Steven H wrote:
Randall Pleasant wrote:
Almost all of the rising vertical cuts are made with the false edge. Watch in slow motion (or steps) the cut starting at 0:29.

Nope. That one's long edge. Try again.

Actually no, it's just that due to the right hand rotating around the grip, what was the short edge in the initial position becomes the long edge in the ending position. The sword moves only in the plane of its edges in this example.

I personally wouldn't call that a short edge cut but I guess that's what Randall meant.

Regards,


Right, since short/false edge and long/true edge is not defined by the weapon, but its relationship to how you are holding it.

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

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