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Colt Reeves





Joined: 09 Mar 2009

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PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 1:19 am    Post subject: Strange Messers?         Reply with quote

This evening I was experimenting with I.33. (Using a machete as my sword and a pot lid as my buckler in the sword. Martial arts on the cheap!) One of the videos I was looking at for this was this one here, Fencing with five different medieval weapons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TzdtyMC7ek

Now, if you watch that video you get a good view of what seem to be messers of some kind (they even have the shell guard). However, I can't recall or locate any messers with abrupt triangular points quite like that. Having used the search function for the forums and Google, I now turn to the board's mercy. Does anyone know of such a weapon historially? Do you have any pretty pretty pictures of such?

I'm inclined to think that they didn't worry too much about historical accuracy with practice weapons and simply made sure they were safe, but I have a little voice in the back of my head suggesting I have come across a illustration of a old manuscript somewhere on the net that featured messers like this.

Edit: Not only do they have those points, but they seem to have them angled in opposite directions for each. One looks like a seax or maybe like a falchion or two I've seen, but they have messer-like hilts.
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A. Spanjer




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PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know much about Messers, they do look like big seaxes.

Regardless, it was an impressive video! I especially liked the rondel dagger combat.

Na sir 's na seachain an cath.
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Tim Hall




Location: Stafford/Fairfax, VA
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PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe that there is atleast one manual(if not more) that shows sword and messer. I thought it was Talhoffer, but I wasn't able to find it. Someone else on here might know some more about this, or you could try posting a comment on their youtube video and asking about it (that's what I do when I'm curious about something like this).
Good luck in your search!Happy


Tim

Edit: Sorry I misread the question. I'll leave my response in case it comes up. haha
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Their messer appear to be similiar to those seen in the fechtbuch of Hans Lecküchner:

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00...l?seite=46

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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A.A. Boskaljon




Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 2:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes. Talhoffer shows messer as well.

http://www.schielhau.org/images/tafel_223.gif
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 3:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The blades of these messers looks as they are influenced by the (type of) falchion that is exhibited at the Army Museum in Paris. The cut out (clip point) is inverted so that the curve is on the forward edge. This is evident if you look at the close ups in the clip: the grove or fuller is on the point side of the weapon and oposite the cut out.
The video clip shows that one of the weapons have something like a scent stopper pommel and another has a wheel or disc pommel (the one wielded by the man in the first bout with blade and buckler). So at least one of them is not a messer, but a falchion. Possibly both weapons? Perhaps there are more than two weapons with blades like these used in the video clip. It s difficult to make out. A possible third blade seems to have a pommel like that of a polish or hungarian saber. Never seen that on a messer or falchion. Would be great to see a period depiction of such a weapon!
Even if they make a pan over the weapons used they leave out some important details, so we are left with speculations as to the actual details.

I am not aware of any manual showing messers with this type of blade, but as falchions and messers sometimes have similar blade types, it is at least a feasible possibility. Even if there is no historical basis for this type of weapon, they do look both interesting and functional. I would love to see a period picture of this type of weapon, if there is one. It would be a great addition to the various shapes of the messer/falchion family.

I attach a photo of the falchion from Paris below:



 Attachment: 63.11 KB
DSC01999.jpg
The image is obscured by reflexes in the glass. Note that the fuller is on the point side of the blade: the cut out is in the forward edge. The point is in fact reinforced. Almost like that of a halberd, but less heavy in section.
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 6:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
A possible third blade seems to have a pommel like that of a polish or hungarian saber. Never seen that on a messer or falchion.


Hello Mr. Johnsson

If I can ask (I must have missed that) , were in the vid did you saw that pommel?
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 6:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Samuel Bena wrote:
Peter Johnsson wrote:
A possible third blade seems to have a pommel like that of a polish or hungarian saber. Never seen that on a messer or falchion.


Hello Mr. Johnsson

If I can ask (I must have missed that) , were in the vid did you saw that pommel?


If you pause at 0:38 and 0:40 you can see that the weapon of the male fighter has a disc pommel.
In the close up at 1:01 you can see a pommel that looks a bit like the one used on 16th and 17th C Polish and Hungarian sabers. Perhaps this last detail is a hint that the maker of these training weapons is a polish smith?
Happy
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 7:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A.A. Boskaljon wrote:
Yes. Talhoffer shows messer as well.

http://www.schielhau.org/images/tafel_223.gif


There are a lot of fechtbücher that show messers, but the Talhoffer ones don't really look like the ones in the video. Truth be told, now that I look more closely, I'm not so sure that the ones in Lecküchner look as close as I originally thought. I think Peter may be right that they are inspired by certain falchions instead.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Samuel Bena wrote:
Peter Johnsson wrote:
A possible third blade seems to have a pommel like that of a polish or hungarian saber. Never seen that on a messer or falchion.


Hello Mr. Johnsson

If I can ask (I must have missed that) , were in the vid did you saw that pommel?


If you pause at 0:38 and 0:40 you can see that the weapon of the male fighter has a disc pommel.
In the close up at 1:01 you can see a pommel that looks a bit like the one used on 16th and 17th C Polish and Hungarian sabers. Perhaps this last detail is a hint that the maker of these training weapons is a polish smith?
Happy


Damn... you spotted a detail like that in a fraction of second, wow Eek!


, indeed the pommel cap looks very similar to those of later Polish-Hungarian sabres (an example of late 16th century magyar pallashes)



It seems that the messers (tesák(s)/tasak(s) in Slavic lands) had their own kind of pommel(pommel-cap?) though, ( posting a pic from iirc a Polish museum ; sadly I don't remember the original source )



Polish smith is quite a possibility, but it could also be a smithy from any other area of East-Central Europe imho Happy

Regards
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Colt Reeves





Joined: 09 Mar 2009

Posts: 466

PostPosted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well whatta-ya-know, Windlass wasn't too far off when making their two-handed falchion. Looks a lot like that one from Paris, see here: http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2729

Edit: Except they did it on the reverse side. I'm a little slow....
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