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Michael Ekelmann




Location: Seattle Metro Area, USA
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Feb, 2010 2:22 am    Post subject: Real El Cid Sword?         Reply with quote

Hi all,
I've always loved the shape of the Colada del Cid http://www.netlinkenterprises.com/prodimages/SG1100.jpg I worked my way through several wallhangers that were styled after this sword, dating back from when I was teen at the local renfaire. What I'm wondering is there are any makers who have a not wallhanger sword that follows the same pattern?
Thanks,

“Men prefer to fight with swords, so they can see each other's eyes!" Sean Connery as Mulay Hamid El Raisuli in The Wind and the Lion
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Feb, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a sword from a good company that captures some of the flowing lines of your hilt:

http://www.arms-n-armor.com/sword192.html

But these look like Renaissance swords to me. We're talking about the El Cid that died in 1099, right? The laws of probability predict that he would have carried a much more primitive looking sword in that period - probably an Xa or XI with a simple straight or curved guard and likely a Brazil nut or simple wheel pommel.

Wikipedia shows quite a different 'El Cid' sword. That one looks like a 13/14th century XIII that has been re-hilted at some later date to look showy.

This seems to be a trend with these 'swords of a famous person' - often they are composed of different components from various periods after the person had died (other examples would be swords of Charles the Great, William Wallace).
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Feb, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

El Cid had two sword. One called Tizona, one called Colada. The one featured on Wikipedia:

is the one usually called Tizona. It is now in the Army Museum in Toledo (formerly Madrid). It is clearly a rehilted older blade, but the attribution is quite old, I think from the 16th C. at least.

There is also the blade G.180 in the Real Armeria in Madrid, which is also associated with El Cid, and might be either Tizona or Colada.

The reproduction of the Colada that you posted is a "modern" version without any real historical basis. But it's a nice looking sword. I also have one hanging on my wall. Wink

There is, as far as I know, one maker of these swords that are properly made. His name is Mariano Zamorano.
http://www.marianozamorano.com/

If you are interested, I have some pictures of his Colada dismantled, so that you can see the tang.
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Michael Ekelmann




Location: Seattle Metro Area, USA
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
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Posts: 92

PostPosted: Fri 12 Feb, 2010 10:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D.,
I agree that the Coloda del Cid is a Renaissance style sword. I think like other famous historical figures swords, somehow it became associated with the person and it sticks, no matter tha actual historical context. I admit that I bought my first one because of the Heston movie, though. Thanks for pointing out the arms and amour sword, that's the look I'm after at a decent price point too.

“Men prefer to fight with swords, so they can see each other's eyes!" Sean Connery as Mulay Hamid El Raisuli in The Wind and the Lion
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Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Sun 14 Feb, 2010 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a rather tricky thing...being Spanish there has been a lot of controversy around those swords for a time.

There were two swords, one the "Tizona" (probably meaning "blackened" or "burning wood") and the other the "colada", (probably related to the hierro or acero "colado" i.e. refined steel).

The swords traditionally called Tizona are currently in Burgos, after being bought for 1.6 millon € (!) and the Colada is at the Armería Real in Madrid.

That some swords having those names were in the Alcazar Real at Segovia in the late XV century is documented, but no drawings survive. The Tizona was asked as a present by the first Marqués de Falces, a close friend of King Ferdinand in such times, so that may explain the hilt style. The blades seem to be genuine from the XI or XII th centuries.

Besides this, there are some more unhilted blades at the Real Armería, that could be also such swords.

Of course, and unlike other mithic swords, no description or contemporary drawing survives, so they may not be related to El Cid at all...

In the Cantar del Mío cid the hilt of the Tizona is described as las maçanas e los arriazes todos d´oro son (3180) i.e. that the pommel (in the form of an apple or spherical, simmilar to the arabic swords) and the crossguards were all gilded.

To end, here you have a drawing of a sword of a sword, probably Iberian, that may look like such swords looked like in their best times:


It is currently at the Museo de Armería de Alava. The length it's about 1 metre and the weight around 1 Kg. The pommel and crossguards hdecorated with silver thread.

AFAIK, all the commercial sword are wallhangers. Unless you place an order....
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Sun 14 Feb, 2010 3:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
The swords traditionally called Tizona are currently in Burgos, after being bought for 1.6 millon € (!) and the Colada is at the Armería Real in Madrid.


Are these the swords I mentioned in my post? I posted a picture of a sword called "Tizona" and mentioned sword G.180 in the Real Armeria as perhaps being "Colada".

Thanks for the picture of the sword Museo de Armería de Alava. Interesting sword in it's own right, and it does match the description in the poem nicely.

If it's possible for you, I would be really interested in seeing pictures and detailed attributions of all the swords you mention in your post. The swords of El Cid are a confusing topic... If you can provide us with an overview, it would be very, very helpful!

This was also an interesting discussion btw.:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t...ght=colada

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
AFAIK, all the commercial sword are wallhangers. Unless you place an order....


Do you include the swords from Zamorano in this opinion? What I know from these swords is that they are at least servicable, that is, made from proper steel and with a full tang. I have never seen one in person though.
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Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 2:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I posted a picture of a sword called "Tizona" and mentioned sword G.180 in the Real Armeria as perhaps being "Colada".


The confussion may be in that the sword known as the Tizona was leased to the Army museum in Toledo, and was recently bought so now is at Burgos. Such is the sword shown in your photo, with a red background.



The sword with the upper hilt is the Tizona, and the lower one the Colada. Those are some examples of the cheaper replicas, ranging about 30-50€ in Spain. I'm sure Zamorano's must be far better, but not how much...I've never seen or heard of anybody using them other than decoration. Anyway, such blades with such hilts will make their handling...interesting.

Quote:
This was also an interesting discussion btw.:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t...ght=colada


Yes, it's worth reading it...those swords history is obscure and not simple.
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
The sword with the upper hilt is the Tizona, and the lower one the Colada. Those are some examples of the cheaper replicas, ranging about 30-50€ in Spain. I'm sure Zamorano's must be far better, but not how much...I've never seen or heard of anybody using them other than decoration. Anyway, such blades with such hilts will make their handling...interesting.
I've seen some pictures of disassembled Zamorano blades: full tang (no welding), with taper. The pommel is threaded. On some other swords I've seen (not rapiers), the corners on the connection between the blade and the tang do look a bit sharp to me, but it's probably not a real problem.

I heard that Zamorano made rapiers used to be quite popular in SCA rapier fighting. Attached, you'll find a picture of the tang of such a rapier blade.

Regarding the hilts and balance, the Tizona is probably at least rehilted around 1500 or so, and it shows the fashion of the time. For instance the sword of el "Gran Capitan" is similar, if a bit less flashy, and in a common style in Spain around that period. The hilt usually fitted to "Colada" "replica's", is also not *that* much removed from early rapiers.



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