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Doug Olsen




Location: Nature Coast, FL
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 03 Feb, 2010 4:43 pm    Post subject: Persian? Helmet??         Reply with quote

Question I've honestly never been into armour before, but I cam across this beauty, and before I get ripped off trying to sell or consign it, can anyone tell me about it? I was told it was a 17th Century Moors Battle Helmet, but can hardly find anything at all on Moor helmets. The gold decorations seem to be REAL gold. It has some missing chain mail. (that's a word I didn't know a week ago). A neat picture on the nose guard. If anyone can put a name on this, it would be great. If you could give me a value, that would even be better. I've researched helmets all night last night and they seem to range from a few hundred to $20,000. What is the difference? This sure is a PRETTY one. (probably not a great word for a battle helmet, huh?)

More photos here

I've never used photo hosting before, so might have it messed up.

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Markus A




Location: Germany
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed 03 Feb, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hi
thats an KULAD KHUD
an indian or persian battlehelmet worn untill 1850 ties
nice but i doubt worth that amount
well if one must have and has the money
why not
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Wed 03 Feb, 2010 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As Markus said this is a Khula Khud helmet. The style can be found through out the Indo Persian world making in roads as far as the Caucuss region of Russia. The maille appears to be butted which would put this piece twords the end of the 18th century or 19th century ( 19th century is more likely ). This is as nice an example as i've seen, your gold koftari work appears to be nearly completely intact, which isn't that common. The helmet appears to be engraved rather than etched based on the pics ( some are a little fuzzy so I may be wrong on that ) which makes it some what unusual, as etching or chiselwork on cheaper examples was more common. The maille rends aren't bad, the ventail being about 85% or so intact it would appear. This is a really nice example of a later piece. Indo Persian has really come into its own on the colectors market in the last 6-7 years, but I suspect $20,000 is quite a bit more than you'll fetch for it.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 03 Feb, 2010 9:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Beautful example but, as Allan said, if it is butted mail ("butted" means that there are no tiny rivets holding the links closed) then it won't be much more than 200 years old. No way would you get $20,000 for it. At a guess it would be worth a thousand or two. It is in very good condition.
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Doug Olsen




Location: Nature Coast, FL
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 04 Feb, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the input.. keep it coming as I am a novice in this field! I'll check on the chains to see how they are linked and will upload photos shortly.

Let me correct myself please: I didn't say it was WORTH 20,000 what I said was that I've seen them range on the internet from $200 to $20,000 (but I spelled out "two hundred" rather than writing it as a number, so perhaps someone missed my "low range"? The 20,000 was spectacular, and at an auction at Sothebys or Christies in PRISTINE condition. "museum quality" or something.

The gold work does appear to be etched.

Why did someone tell me it was from the "Moors"? Is there a difference between Moors and Indo-Persian?

gold koftari work -- what is that? the etchings or engravings on it? There is also writing that looks Arabic. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know how it got there, either by engraving or etching.

Lastly, does anyone know who the figure on the nose guard is supposed to represent?

One more thing... in my first post.. I put a link to a photo album (actually, it was the Administrator that helped me get the html correct to put the link) but there are many close ups in it as well if you wanted to see more.

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Markus A




Location: Germany
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Thu 04 Feb, 2010 8:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hello moorish would mean from the sarancens around 1200.the did invade spain.the story of el cid was written during their reign over half spain.during the reconcista the did throw them out again.and conquered back sapin again.i think the last moorish town fell aroudn 1400 and was valencia....well iam not completly sure
persian is the iran today
and indo-persian does mean because they used nearly the same arms they are sometimes hard to divide.the sikh cavalry in indio fought clad in armour an helmets against brits during battle of ramnaggar during 19.century
but i agree this helmet is nice.and indian or persian weapons are very handome
during the years an collectors market did establish and they have risen in worth every years
30 years ago swords and armour of this origin was sold for peanuts
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Thu 04 Feb, 2010 9:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Koftari is a decorative technique that was very popular in the region. The surface to be covered in gold or silver is crosshatched using a file or chisel in the design wanted, fine gold or silver foil is hammered into the crosshatching and then the surface is burnished which removes the loose foil from the non crosshatched surfaces leaving the design in gold or silver. I have a couple of silver examples http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=10 http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=38

No idea who the figure on the nasal is, it could be generic.
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Doug Olsen




Location: Nature Coast, FL
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 04 Feb, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: ADDITIONAL INDO PERSIAN HELMET PHOTOS, Maille and Close Ups         Reply with quote

OK, I read all the info on using BBC, and I believe I know how to put the link to the photo album with new photos of the helmet. I've taken close ups of the Maille to help date the helmet. I've also taken better close ups so maybe you can help me decide if it is etched, engraved or chiseled. All are per previous posts.
http://tinypic.com/a/1lzc6/1

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Doug Olsen




Location: Nature Coast, FL
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 04 Feb, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I got so excited about how to post the new Photos that I forgot to thank all who have been helping me understand this helmet. I'm learning MANY new words and info today! They say you learn something new every day, and today is a winner!
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Thu 04 Feb, 2010 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The maille is butted so the helmet is late 18th or 19th century as I figured. I can't make out any tooling marks in the low areas of the floral/vine decoration from the pics so without being able to examine it closer i'm going to say that part of the decoration was rather deeply etched with gold koftari work in some of the relief areas and on the nasal.
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Fri 05 Feb, 2010 12:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The "Moors" was a term used in Europe to describe the inhabitants of North Africa and the Arab inhabitants of Spain. Persian refers to the language and culture of the majority of the people of the country now known as Iran. The two areas, North Africa and Iran, are thousands of miles apart. Although most of the people of North Africa and Iran share a common religion, the languages, and to a lesser extent the cultures, are quite different.

That style of helmet was used mainly in Iran and Northern India. Most surviving examples date from the 19th century and were probably for ceremonial use. Examples made before the mid-18th century had aventails made of rivetted mail and were meant for combat.

19th century Iranian armour and helmets often do come up for sale on auction websites:
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm56...at56_p.txt
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm56...at56_p.txt
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm54...at54_a.txt
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2257

This is one of the older examples I've come across:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3571

That is a rather nice helmet by the way. If It was mine, I would see if I could get it restored then put it on display in my living room. Happy
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Doug Olsen




Location: Nature Coast, FL
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri 05 Feb, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject: Thank You ALL for my Education!!         Reply with quote

Thanks to all on the forum for all the education you are filling me with. I have one more questions from some of the examples of other helmets on the internet from Hisham Gaballa.. what does the word Qajar mean? They used it instead of Khula Khud. Thanks again.
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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Fri 05 Feb, 2010 7:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you read the write up you'll see that Qajar refers to the period in which it was made, the same thing as say Ming Dynasty, not the name of the helmet, the helmet is a khula khud.
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Sat 06 Feb, 2010 2:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What Allan said. Happy

I'll just expand a bit further. The Qajars were a dynasty who ruled Iran from 1794 to 1925, so therefore Iranian art from this period is often referred to as Qajar Art. Kulah khud is term used by Western antique experts to refer to helmets of type you bought. Apparently in Farsi though kulah khud (sometimes spelled kolahkhud) simply means "cap helmet".

If you have time and a bit of money, it's worth investing in a few books on Oriental arms and armour. A good starting point is Robinson's "Oriental Armour", which although old, provides loads of background information:
http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.0486418189.html

If you really get into the subject, check out M. Khorasani's "Arms and Armour from Iran":
http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.3932942221.html

I have to admit I'm biased with regards to the second book Happy; Manouchehr is a member of this forum and a frequent contributer.
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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

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PostPosted: Sat 06 Feb, 2010 5:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The quality of the pics in Manouchr's book is excellent !
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Doug Olsen




Location: Nature Coast, FL
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 10 Feb, 2010 9:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am thoroughly enjoying the education!
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Doug Olsen




Location: Nature Coast, FL
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 10 Feb, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject: Scrollwork vs Calligraphy         Reply with quote

Can anyone tell me if the Islamic or Arabic figures around the band are called Scrollwork or Caligraphy? Is there a way to find out what it says? (translation?)
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Wed 10 Feb, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Scrollwork vs Calligraphy         Reply with quote

Doug Olsen wrote:
Can anyone tell me if the Islamic or Arabic figures around the band are called Scrollwork or Caligraphy? Is there a way to find out what it says? (translation?)


Calligraphy is writing, in this case using Arabic script. The writing itself could be verses from the Qur'an, Persian poetry or the names and titles of the owner or his lord. Scrollwork would just be abstract designs (I think).
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 306

PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some related examples I've photographed from various museums:

http://ForensicFashion.com/1786QajarCavalryHelmet.html
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