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Ben Mudd





Joined: 23 Jan 2010

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PostPosted: Wed 03 Feb, 2010 2:41 pm    Post subject: c. 1350 Bollock Daggers?         Reply with quote

Hi all,

Just curious what bollock daggers looked like around the middle of the 14th century. The myArmoury spotlight article seems to imply that they're the simpler forms of the type, but I'd like to confirm this, as none of the examples shown in the article are specifically and positively identified even to the 14th century. Also, what blade geometry?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Ben
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Feb, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These daggers are mostly referred to as a "Ballock Dagger" (note the spelling). I imagine that most people on this site are familiar with examples dating after 1400.
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Ed T.




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Feb, 2010 6:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the Luttrell Psalter


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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Feb, 2010 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ballock daggers, while found in period art fairly frequently in the 14th century, do not survive in great numbers. I found 2 in my library.

Harold Peterson's "Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World" doesn't show any. Logan Thompson's "Daggers and Bayonets" doesn't show any either. Claude Blair's "European & American Arms" shows one, but the hilt has been restored and there's no real way to know what it looked like initially.

You may also want to check out this old thread on 14th century daggers, which covers ballock daggers and rondel daggers: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9853

Rondel, baselard, and quillon daggers seem to have been more popular based on prevalence in period art and surviving examples.



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Dated to the 14th century, but not specifically. It doesn't say where it rests now either. Published in Dr. Capwell's recent book on daggers.

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Dated to the late 14th century. Housed in the Museum fur Deutsche Geschichte in Berlin.

Happy

ChadA

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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Feb, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agreeing with Chad, there seem to be very few from the 14th.

I have a picture of this one that came from a Norweigian (if I remember right) city and was dated 1300



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Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Feb, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

this ballock dagger has been found in Amsterdam, it can be dated 14thC.

best regards from holland



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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Feb, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cornelis,
Thanks for sharing this. How did you arrive at a 14th century date for this? It's a nice dagger, but the reinforced point, asymmetrical blade, bolster/guard, etc. all look like 15th century items to me. This would be an early example of those things.

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ChadA

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Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Feb, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Cornelis,
Thanks for sharing this. How did you arrive at a 14th century date for this? It's a nice dagger, but the reinforced point, asymmetrical blade, bolster/guard, etc. all look like 15th century items to me. This would be an early example of those things.


Hi Chad,

it is only my own interpretation so it might be wrong. (I am aware that this type is generally dated mid 15thC. fa a similar dagger in the Wallace collection)

In the 14thC the reinforced diamond point and ricasso had their introduction in sword design.(examples of typeXVIa and XVII).
this ballock dagger has a of blunt ricasso in order to be used with 1 1/2 hand and a reinforced point.


Best regards from Holland
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Feb, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cornelis Tromp wrote:
this ballock dagger has been found in Amsterdam, it can be dated 14thC.


Look at the closeup of the tip on this dagger and see its reinforcing. Many believe that this makes it easier to punch through mail. This is not the case. The best shape for punching through mail is a thin spike, but this is is a fairly fragile shape. The whole point of reinforcing these kinds of weapons is to make it less likely for the tip to snap when the weapon FAILS to punch through mail (or bone). It is a compromise between practicality and armour-piercing capacity. Every design has a tradeoff. You lose a little armour-piercing capacity and gain a more sturdy weapon.
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Sun 07 Feb, 2010 1:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Agreeing with Chad, there seem to be very few from the 14th.

I have a picture of this one that came from a Norweigian (if I remember right) city and was dated 1300


It's swedish, and currently residing at Kulturen in Lund. Personally, I think the dating is a bit on the early side, but who knows. There is at least one hilt similar to the one on the one you posted, found in Sweden; the dating only says "medieval".

Here it is; http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/bild.asp?uid=312674

Johan Schubert Moen
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Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Feb, 2010 11:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

herewith 3 daggers published by heribert Seitz in Blankwaffen 1. p211

the left dagger from the Metropoltian Museum of art,NY has a similar reinforced point as my dagger and is dated end of 14thC.

the dagger in the midle is dated 1450 ( also collection MMOA,NY)

the dagger on the right from the Statens museum, Stockholm Sweden is dated 15thC.



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