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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
Joined: 07 Oct 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 7:26 am    Post subject: Walloon Sword Grip         Reply with quote

I saw a very cool "walloon" sword for sale from a very reputable antique dealer, don't know if I'm allowed to mention names. The guy said if there was any question of authenticity I can return it for a full refund, he has a good reputation so I doubt he is passing off fakes. My question is this though, the sword supposedly is in completely untouched condition and has its original grip. The grip has "traces of its original leather covering", because im interested in the sword I started looking through pictures of originals and every single one I've seen has had a wire wrapped grip. Where simpler versions issued to standard cavalry sometimes wrapped in leather? The other thing I wanted to ask, during the English Civil War where they rehilting old blades with newer complex hilts? This doesnt really have anything to do with the one I want to buy, but in allot of the picks some of the swords look like they have older type X, XI, etc. blades for earlier medieval blades.
Thnx
Z
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 391

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blades have been re-used throughout history, I would not be surprised to see re-used versions during the Civil War. Most of the Walloon hilted swords were made in Germany, originally for trade to the Netherlands. If the sword has any identifying marks they would probably tell you were the sword was made and/or used, what armoury held the sword, etc. As for the leather grip I can't recall any, but Walloon swords are not of particular interest to me so I probably would not remember one if I had seen it. During the 17th century there are many swords with leather grips, so it would not surprise me if it is indeed genuine. Generally the well reputed antique dealers have their good reputation for a reason, and they like to keep it that way. If they sell you a sword not as described they will most likely try and make up for it.
With luck someone with more knowledge of Walloon swords will respond with more information, my area of interest is a bit earlier than 17th century.
Hope I was a bit of a help,
Hadrian

Historia magistra vitae est
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 9:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It would be helpful if you could post a photo of the sword. The name, Walloon covers a number of design variations.

Here are a couple of Walloons that I found at Hermann Historica that look like they have leather grips



 Attachment: 17.31 KB
walloon1a 1660.jpg
circa 1660, copyright Hermann Historica

 Attachment: 21.13 KB
walloon9b 89cm.jpg
copyright Hermann Historica
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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
Joined: 07 Oct 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 8:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dont know how to... Its hilt looks almost identical to http://www.ollinsworddesign.com/osd-custom-17cws.html but with a leather gip, and the shell guard parts have pierced holes. The blade is double edged with a fuller, and something called a "running wolf" mark (looks just like random scratches to me). The whole thing has a consistent brown patina.
Thnx
Z
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 8:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You have to show your sword if you want help. There's plenty of info on how to attach images on the 'net. Google is your friend and so is our Attachment Guide.

I'm eager to see your sword!

Cheers

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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
Joined: 07 Oct 2008

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Posts: 236

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan, 2010 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well I figured out how to post pictures, but I also got contacted by the dealer. He said the photos are copyrighted and are his until I actually buy the item. He said I was free to disscuss the item, but I couldn't post pictures on a forum. So is there any help I can get without showing pics? If you can't answer specifically about this sword could you at least speak in more general terms?
I'm sorry!
Thnx
Z
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Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 08 May 2009
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zach Gordon wrote:
Well I figured out how to post pictures, but I also got contacted by the dealer. He said the photos are copyrighted and are his until I actually buy the item. He said I was free to disscuss the item, but I couldn't post pictures on a forum


If a dealer doesn't want a potential customer to use pictures of the item when seeking assurance from the more knowledgeable that the item is genuine, a good buy, etc., and incidentally showing the item to more potential customers while doing so, the safe approach is to not buy.

Of course, "safe" isn't always "best".
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan, 2010 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You could provide a link to the item if it is posted online, but you run the risk of competition for the sword. Most dealers do not want their photos posted elsewhere online. I do not think there is need to be suspicious.
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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan, 2010 3:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

yes as Jonathan stated you have a quandary. you are apprehensive about authenticity and would like a consensus of opinion which is good because in this field it is a case of caveat emptor - yet the truth is there is no simple answer to your question about grips and we can't help you if you don't tell us more about the sword........ however if you do, this is a public forum and you run the risk of someone who has also been mulling it over to jump first. has happened to all of us............ its in the nature of the game so to speak.

now back to grips. experience indicates to me that as late as the 1970s, many folks did not necessarily see re-doing a grip on an antique sword as a "faux-pas" provided the hilt was not disassembled and monkeyed with. its only in the past 20 years or so that people in the collector community have gotten more purist in their attitudes towards antique swords. so unfortunately what this means is that you will find quite a few original 17th-18th c swords with questionable grips since those are the perishable materials. its often very hard to say what is period and what is not. leather does not age well yet some grips were done in leather in 17th c and survive. probably more important is your take on whether the blade and hilt components are original to each other. tr

ps i am very familiar with various dealer inventory and i am pretty certain which sword you are talking about. if its the one that is 34 7/8ths and double fullered - i think its all original (although maybe missing its original wire wrap) and if you like it you should buy it.
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Mark G.
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Location: WI
Joined: 17 Feb 2005

Posts: 74

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan, 2010 5:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zach Gordon wrote:
Dont know how to... Its hilt looks almost identical to http://www.ollinsworddesign.com/osd-custom-17cws.html but with a leather gip, and the shell guard parts have pierced holes. The blade is double edged with a fuller, and something called a "running wolf" mark (looks just like random scratches to me). The whole thing has a consistent brown patina.
Thnx
Z


I don't know if it helps any, but the grip on the original sword that the custom piece was based on is most likely not original. I have no idea when the grip was replaced or whether it wire or leather wrapped originally. The sword was also missing its gaurd plates.

Mark

www.ollinsworddesign.com
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Viktor Abrahamson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 07 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan, 2010 7:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zach, you wrote that the dealer said "if there was any question of authenticity I can return it for a full refund".
Then you could just buy it, find out if it is real or not and then return it if itīs fake.
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