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Augusto Boer Bront
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Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 10:34 am    Post subject: Breastplate: when, where, which.         Reply with quote

I want to know when they were intriduced the brastplate (like the Churburg one) and where, and when they were intruduced backplates and where.
Thanks a lot!!

Edit: Sorry: date 1366
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Augusto Boer Bront
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Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jan, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C'mon!!
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Alex Hoogstraten




Location: The netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jan, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In know they appear in the late 14th century, somewhere around 1370. But the coat-of-plates remains the most common till 1390. The earliest I know is the churburg harness.

I specialize in the 14th century (1360-70) and I wouldn't know any other example than that.

edit. I remember some literary sources and accounts around 1350 that refer to breastplates. But this could be translation errors or a references to coat of plates

www.cranenburgh.nl
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jan, 2010 1:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Solid iron breast and back plates date back to Hellenistic times. There are at least two surviving examples. I'm not sure what the question is.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jan, 2010 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I also am not sure what you are asking. There is evidence that is solid for the 1330s and 1340s for solid 1 piece breastplates but not sure what you are really asking so this may or may not help.

RPM
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jan, 2010 6:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think you could get a better response if you narrowed your question down a bit. from the wording, i think you are referring to its revival in the late middle ages, however, as people have mentioned, breastplates have been around since the time of the Greeks. and even after this resurgence there are many types. I know its THE most infuriating question in the world when you get a response to narrow down your question, but it helps give a good answer instead of a basic statement with little information content and detail. and BTW, check out Mad Matts armoury. they specialize in 14thcent. armour and if you shoot them an Email, you could probably get a very good answer out of them. most armourers have a very comprehensive knowledge on dates and specific pieces and will be happy to help you out. If that for any reason does'nt satisfy you, shoot an Email to Mercenaries Tailor. I can guarantee that Allan will be happy to help you out on this.
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2010 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Solid iron breast and back plates date back to Hellenistic times. There are at least two surviving examples. I'm not sure what the question is.


Sorry for slightly off-topic question Dan, can you possibly either post here or, to not further derail the thread, shoot me a PM with more specifics about those finds? Sadly I do not posess information about those Helenistic period iron breastplates but would be very interessed in them.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would also like to hear about these breastplates.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The most well known and the only one of which I have photos is the cuirass found at Vergina. The tomb is alleged to be that of Philip II, Alexander's father.


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Vergina cuirass - heavily restored

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Vergina cuirass in situ

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Replica made by Manning Imperial
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

*Slaps himself* fool of me! Never connected the " Philips quirass" from Vergina with the ones you menthioned Happy Where was other one found, even if no pictures are avaliable?
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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
I think you could get a better response if you narrowed your question down a bit. from the wording, i think you are referring to its revival in the late middle ages, however, as people have mentioned, breastplates have been around since the time of the Greeks. and even after this resurgence there are many types. I know its THE most infuriating question in the world when you get a response to narrow down your question, but it helps give a good answer instead of a basic statement with little information content and detail. and BTW, check out Mad Matts armoury. they specialize in 14thcent. armour and if you shoot them an Email, you could probably get a very good answer out of them. most armourers have a very comprehensive knowledge on dates and specific pieces and will be happy to help you out. If that for any reason does'nt satisfy you, shoot an Email to Mercenaries Tailor. I can guarantee that Allan will be happy to help you out on this.


80$ for a pair of arm harness!!?? WTF?! WTF?! WTF?!
http://www.madmattsarmory.com/inv_arms.php
They are made of paper?
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2010 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Augusto Boer Bront wrote:
Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
I think you could get a better response if you narrowed your question down a bit. from the wording, i think you are referring to its revival in the late middle ages, however, as people have mentioned, breastplates have been around since the time of the Greeks. and even after this resurgence there are many types. I know its THE most infuriating question in the world when you get a response to narrow down your question, but it helps give a good answer instead of a basic statement with little information content and detail. and BTW, check out Mad Matts armoury. they specialize in 14thcent. armour and if you shoot them an Email, you could probably get a very good answer out of them. most armourers have a very comprehensive knowledge on dates and specific pieces and will be happy to help you out. If that for any reason does'nt satisfy you, shoot an Email to Mercenaries Tailor. I can guarantee that Allan will be happy to help you out on this.


80$ for a pair of arm harness!!?? WTF?! WTF?! WTF?!
http://www.madmattsarmory.com/inv_arms.php
They are made of paper?


No, but they are of simpliest possible construction and of 1.5 mm thick metal. I am sure that whoever is making them has calculated the prices to be able to offer for lowest possible price and still earn some profit.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 10 Jan, 2010 2:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is another example of a Hellenistic iron cuirass in the Corfu museum. Just found photos. This one is of the "muscled" typology.


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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Sun 10 Jan, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the picture of the Corfu cuirass Dan. I didn't know there is second Ancient Greek iron cuirass. Happy

Since the original poster has clarified that he is asking about 14th century AD Western European Breastplates, I'll add my bit. The silver altarpiece from Pistoia Cathedral (circa 1376) clearly shows a figure wearing a one-piece breastplate with a fauld attached to the lower edge.

Another item; a few years ago Hermann Historica sold a coat-of-plates dated circa 1350. Although this is a CoP and is cloth-covered, it included a large one-piece breastplate: http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm52...at52_A.txt
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S. Jansone




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PostPosted: Sun 10 Jan, 2010 11:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
There is another example of a Hellenistic iron cuirass in the Corfu museum. Just found photos. This one is of the "muscled" typology.

Thank you! Is there any other available information about this one? Century, some other grave goods probably... I am asking this because my main interest period is Hellenism and I have not come across this one until now.
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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 3:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is another one, presumed thracian. There is a picture of this one in Osprey book Tharcians I believe.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Thorax...teType.jpg
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 4:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Romulus Stoica wrote:
Here is another one, presumed thracian. There is a picture of this one in Osprey book Tharcians I believe.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Thorax...teType.jpg


That particular example is made of bronze.
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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 5:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
That particular example is made of bronze.


Yes, I forgot to mention that. My bad Confused
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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I was talking about medieval Bplate
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

S. Jansone wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
There is another example of a Hellenistic iron cuirass in the Corfu museum. Just found photos. This one is of the "muscled" typology.

Thank you! Is there any other available information about this one? Century, some other grave goods probably... I am asking this because my main interest period is Hellenism and I have not come across this one until now.


All I know is that the example at Corfu was found at Prodromi. There is a third example but it is more fragmentary. It was found in the tomb of Agios Athanasios.

There are textual references. One mentions a smith named Zoilos of Cyprus who made an iron cuirass that could withstand an oxybolos bolt at 20 paces.

Another mentions several iron cuirasses being presented to a king in Asia Minor as a gift.
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