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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Wed 09 Dec, 2009 2:21 am    Post subject: british grenadier-dragoons basket hilt photos         Reply with quote

i'm currently in the waiting list of armour class of scotland for a custom basket hilt,

my original plan was to have an english basket hilt ot the early XVIIth century style,

but now i have discovered that some mid-late XVIIIth century military british basket hilt are very interesting,

i have searched trough the forum and i have found some interersting pics, if you have some photos to share

it would be great.

thanks for help
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,265

PostPosted: Wed 09 Dec, 2009 2:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have you seen this album? It really has many great pictures....
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/thumbnails.php?album=19
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Wed 09 Dec, 2009 4:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i agree, many interesting hilt inside.
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Wed 09 Dec, 2009 5:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a small album of British basket hilts of Mazansky type G16:

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/11662059
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Wed 16 Dec, 2009 2:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i like very much this two kind of basket hilt,

there are some antique examples featuring a complete basket instead of an half one?

the E.B.E hanger is in the collection of Mr.Chris Goerner, and i'm quite sure that another forum menber has, or at least

have had, in is collection the other sword pictured, i would be very gratefull to them if they could provide some pics of the

two swords.



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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Wed 16 Dec, 2009 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

English 3/4 Baskethilt circa 1725-1750
Basket type: Mazansky IVBC3
Blade length: 86.4 cm
Overall length: 101.6 cm
Blade width: 3.8 cm at the hilt
Blade thickness at hilt: 8mm
Point of balance: 105 mm
Weight: 1352 grams
Note how the 3 basket panels are not equal sizes - each of the "S" bars are slightly different in size




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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Fri 18 Dec, 2009 3:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr.Thom,

thank you very much for posting the photos and stats of your sword, i suppose that the sword i have mentioned in my previous post was in your collection,
could you tell me your opinion about the hand protection properties of that king of hilt respect to a standard scottish basket hilt?
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Fri 18 Dec, 2009 4:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

here's another interesting british military basket hilt, if i remember well it is a 1788 heavy cavalry pattern,


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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Fri 18 Dec, 2009 7:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriele, the baskethilt I posted above is 3/4 rather than a full wrap-around basket like in a Scots hilt or the 1788 pattern. It is also based on a open heart-shaped stool and not a cross like a full baskethilt. So I think the hand is still vulnerable to a thrust through the bars but overall, the basket provides great protection for the hand for a right-handed person on horseback. sure looks stylish!

here is a photo of my 1788 heavy cavalry pattern trooper's sword (a recent acquisition for me) it has a very substantial steel basket which is completely symmetrical. the basket is based on the conventional late 18th c. "slot hilt" base and knuckleguard:

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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Fri 18 Dec, 2009 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Thom, great collection!

in fact t you have practically all the kind of basket hilt i'm interested in, so i have to ask you to post

some additional photos of the hilt as well the complete stats of this beauty!

hope that you can kindly add also some comment about the handling .

in my opinion this kind of basket should be even more protective than a normal scottish hilt, but considerabily lighter,

thank you again for your help

gabriele
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Chris Goerner




Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Likes: 14 pages

Posts: 350

PostPosted: Fri 18 Dec, 2009 6:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriele Becattini wrote:
i like very much this two kind of basket hilt,

there are some antique examples featuring a complete basket instead of an half one?

the E.B.E hanger is in the collection of Mr.Chris Goerner, and i'm quite sure that another forum menber has, or at least

have had, in is collection the other sword pictured, i would be very gratefull to them if they could provide some pics of the

two swords.


Here are a few more shots of the sword ElJay made for me. I've been having trouble getting used to my new camera, so when I have more time, I will try to get some better resolution photos.

Chris



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Sic Semper Tyranus
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Chris Goerner




Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Joined: 19 Sep 2004
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Posts: 350

PostPosted: Fri 18 Dec, 2009 6:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are a few more shots I forgot I had.


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E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional



Location: Thailand
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 447

PostPosted: Fri 18 Dec, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Gabrielle,
In your post of the 16th you included a photo of an S-hilted hanger, and it's a photo of a sword in my collection. Here's some details: Blade about 26" long, single back fuller, marked with the running fox and SH. There is a leather pad at the base of the grip. Grip is sharkskin bound with brass wire and brass ferrules. The hilt is a half basket, and I've never seen any of these S-hilt hangers with a full basket.

--ElJay
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Sat 19 Dec, 2009 12:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many thanks to everyone,the many detailed photos as well the stats that you are giving me, are an invaluable source
for my little research about the british military style hilt,
Mr.Erickson i'm wondering if you could add some comments about the handling of the s-hilt hanger,
Mr.Goerner i have the same request for you, i'm especially interested to know how such kind of basket hilt compare
respect to a "standard" scottish broadsword/backsword
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Chris Goerner




Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Likes: 14 pages

Posts: 350

PostPosted: Sat 19 Dec, 2009 5:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriele Becattini wrote:
Mr.Goerner i have the same request for you, i'm especially interested to know how such kind of basket hilt compare
respect to a "standard" scottish broadsword/backsword


Gabriele,

I don't do much WMA with my swords, so keep that in mind as it limits the quality of any comments I might make about handling. What I can say is that my hanger is obviously a lighter, faster sword than my baskethilt. The original it is based on had a 28 3/4" blade, overall length of 34 3/8" and weighs 1.6 lbs. The baskethilt, in comparison has a 31 3/4" blade, an overall length of 37 3/8" and weighs just over 2 lbs. The typical baskethilt does provide significantly better protection to the hand, than these half-basket hangers, but at the cost of added weight in the hilt.

I think the real question is how much protection is adequate for the intended use of the weapon. For a foot soldier of the mid 18th century, the musket was their primary weapon, and the bayonet their secondary weapon. The hanger came in a distant third in importance, falling out of use altogether by the end of the century. And considering they were intended to be used against an enemy armed in similar fashion, the protection the half-basket offered was adequate for the job, and superior to the majority of hanger hilts of the period.

The baskethilt seems to have developed out of fashion as much as out of function. At the same time, if I were engaged in a combat against an opponent armed with a broadsword, dirk and targe, I would much prefer to be armed similarly rather than being equipped with a half-basket hanger.

Hope that is helpful. If there are others more knowledgeable on the subject, please correct me on anything I have said beyond my knowledge.

Chris

Sic Semper Tyranus
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Sun 20 Dec, 2009 12:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with you, i believe that in an age where the use of sword for the ordinary soldiers was almost over the scottish broadsword remain a "relic" of the past, retained much more for cultural reason than practical, i'm speaking about the british army of post culloden period. the trend was moving toward lighter weapons, especially for fighting on foot, also the sword with complete basket protection almost disappear at the beginning of the napoleonic period, except for some heavy cavalry pattern, the only exception to this was the highland broadsword. speaking from a fencing point of view,
a complete protetection for the hand is not vital, the hand is a difficult target to hit, even with a very simple guard.
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E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional



Location: Thailand
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 447

PostPosted: Tue 22 Dec, 2009 4:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Gabriele,
The S-hilt hanger isn't too heavy, probably a little over 2 lbs, so not even a kg. With the short blade it's light and maneuverable.

Comparing it to Scottish baskets, I'd have to say it depends on the baskethilted sword. I have one in my collection that only weighs a bit under two pounds, so that one is as fast as the hanger. Others are heavier and slower, but usually a Scot basket has the POB only an inch or two ahead of the hilt, so even the heavy ones can still be maneuvered easily. Now there are antique baskets (both English and Scottish) that weigh 3 lbs+, and those are slow. But as long as the POB is close to the hilt, even those aren't as bad as one would expect them to be.

--ElJay
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