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Vincent C




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 24 Aug 2009

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Tue 08 Dec, 2009 9:56 am    Post subject: The art of fighting with the Claidheamh da Laimh         Reply with quote

Hello

I was wondering whether there are any manuals out there dealing with the art of fighting with the Scottish two-hander.

I'm aware of some of Marozzo's work dictating fighting with a zweihander, but I was wondering if there were any works from the Scot's persepctive, as the two-handed claymore has a noticeably different feel than its German and Italian counterparts.

If any could point me in the right direction that'd be be great.

Honor, compassion, knowledge.
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Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Tue 08 Dec, 2009 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: The art of fighting with the Claidheamh da Laimh         Reply with quote

Vincent C wrote:
Hello

I was wondering whether there are any manuals out there dealing with the art of fighting with the Scottish two-hander.

I'm aware of some of Marozzo's work dictating fighting with a zweihander, but I was wondering if there were any works from the Scot's persepctive, as the two-handed claymore has a noticeably different feel than its German and Italian counterparts.

If any could point me in the right direction that'd be be great.

Maybe not so different as you think. The weapon Marozzo details (Spada da due mani) had quite a bit of variation, although the quillons on the "classical" Scottish two-hander seem to be a little narrower than the "typical" sword Marozzo uses (although still within the parameters). Additionally, you might want to consider the Iberian material for the Montante.

All that said, since you're clearly interested in Scottish swordsmanship, I know you'd prefer a Scottish treatise. Unfortunately, I don't know of any (although there are others who know far, far more about swordsmanship from this area than I do).

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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William Carew




Location: Australia
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

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Posts: 154

PostPosted: Tue 08 Dec, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To follow on from what Steve said, until a Scottish 2-hander treatise is found I personally think the most relevant historical treatise currently available, both in terms of similar sword size and time period, is the Iberian montante.

The montante is a relatively light, 2-handed sword around 5 foot in length (2-handed claidheamh mòr sized) and Diogo Gomes de Figueiredo’s recently translated work on the use of the montante is from 1651, a date when some Scottish Highlanders were still taking the 2-hander into battle unless I'm mistaken.

Examples of the montante:
http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/ArmasMandobles.php

English translation of Dom Figueiredo’s montante treatise:
http://oakeshott.org/Article.html

FWIW, my initial impressions after starting to work with the Rules for the montante is they would work very well with a 2-handed claidheamh mòr.

HTH

Bill

Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Wed 09 Dec, 2009 6:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Carew wrote:

Examples of the montante:
http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/ArmasMandobles.php


I find it interesting that this article has a picture from Meyer. And it's labeled, "Combat with Montantes".

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Vincent C




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 24 Aug 2009

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Wed 09 Dec, 2009 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Carew said
Quote:
To follow on from what Steve said, until a Scottish 2-hander treatise is found I personally think the most relevant historical treatise currently available, both in terms of similar sword size and time period, is the Iberian montante.


After looking up examples of Montante swords (also as it's explained in the manual) and reading (most) of the treatise of Diogo Gomes de Figueiredo, I definitely agree that it is essentially claymore training.

Also, I find it very interesting that some parts of this manual dictate what to do when defending against thrown weapons and fighting while flanked. It's not something I've seen much of in other fencing manuals.

I think trying to apply these in drills will be as fun as it looks interesting.

Thanks very much.

Honor, compassion, knowledge.
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Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Wed 09 Dec, 2009 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent C wrote:
I think trying to apply these in drills will be as fun as it looks interesting.

Thanks very much.


Have fun and be sure to keep your arms extended Happy

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Greg Coffman




Location: Lubbock, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 254

PostPosted: Wed 09 Dec, 2009 7:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
William Carew wrote:

Examples of the montante:
http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/ArmasMandobles.php


I find it interesting that this article has a picture from Meyer. And it's labeled, "Combat with Montantes".

Cheers,
Steven


The article traces the evolution of "two-handed swords" from medieval greatswords, through longswords, and to the later true two-handers. Meyer's longsword falls in the middle.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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