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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Tue 01 Dec, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Help identifying armor         Reply with quote

I was looking at this image from Warlords and I was wondering about the outer armor on the figure on the bottom right. It looks like some kind of reinforced surcoat. And it looks like it just has round metal plates attached to it. So the question is what is that based on I have not seen one in a picture from the time periods it shows it used in the book. So does any one know of any images of armor like it either in pantings, fragments from finds or even recreations?

By the way the caption says. "Edward Bruce attacked by Anglo-Irish warrios a Moiry Pass in Armagh Ulser 1315."

Oh also later in the same books it shows the same kind of armor on an english pikeman in 1513.



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Joel Minturn





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PostPosted: Tue 01 Dec, 2009 8:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I could be wrong but I think that surcoat is just artistic license if you will. Not sure that it ever really existed. Of course now that I say that someone will come int with several pictures of such a thing. but I like learning about new armour so it works
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Patrick Lawrence





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PostPosted: Tue 01 Dec, 2009 8:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ya could be just that. That is what I am trying to figure out. But I did find an image that shows armor like it. But I am not sure what the second image is based on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringmail It says it came from this book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Historians%2..._the_World
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Patrick Lawrence





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PostPosted: Tue 01 Dec, 2009 10:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is one from 1299 that looks something roughly like it. The discs on seem to be more of decoration than armor. And it could be there are plates under it but it is not clear like on some of the effigies that have coats of plates.


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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 3:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm going with artistic license.
Angus McBride was a cool artist (one of the people who inspired me to pursue history), but methinks it's only for dramatic effet. Kind of like RPG 'studded' leather Laughing Out Loud

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
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Patrick Lawrence





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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 12:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Possible but some countries did have studded armor just not western ones.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Lawrence wrote:
Possible but some countries did have studded armor just not western ones.

No they didn't. There were brigandines, which consisted of metal plates riveted to the inside of a garment so that only the rivets were visible on the outside. This became very fashionable to the point that civilian tailors began to emulate them. Faux brigandine consisted of a civilian garment tailored and riveted to look like brigandine but without the metal plates. They provide no protection to the wearer and were never intended to do so. Studded armour as defined in D&D never existed historically.

The above illustration looks more like bezainting to me, which allegedly consisted of metal discs attached to a garment. European examples have been called pennyplate coats. Stone's Glossary has a photo of an Alaskan examle with Japanese and Chinese coins attached.

However, I agree with the above that McBride is just making things up. There is no evidence that something resembling his illustration was ever used in Europe.

Historians History of the World was written in Victorian times. I have a complete collection in my library. It is definitely not a useful reference for the study of armour.
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Patrick Lawrence





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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not up on my D&D but there were the coats of a thousand nails http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys..._nails.jpg And some had plates behind and some did not. And of course chines armor of the same type etc Now were all the ones without backing plates just for ceremonial use or light armor from what I can tell that is still being debated.

And yes I already new about Faux brigandine and normal brigandines and the history of this type of armor.

Any way it is looking like he just pulled it out of thin air as I tend to think the effigy what ever time it is from is just decoration.
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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pat what you've reference is Indo-Persina/Mohgul, 18th century. Theres a decent discussion of it here http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewto...mor+armour

Europe had no such similar garment.
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Patrick Lawrence





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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know and I never said Europe did:) It was a follow up to where I said "Possible but some countries did have studded armor just not western ones." .
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Whoa, easy there sparky, just pointing out a thread that might be of interest to you since you mentioned the type of armour. No need to be bent, no offense was intended.
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Patrick Lawrence





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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry did not mean it to come across like it was. I was just in a hurry when I replied. That's a problem with forums a lot of times you cant tell how something was said. Happy
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Eric Hejdström




Location: Visby, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is however, pictures in a manuscript (to wich I lost the adress and forgotten the nam, duh!) where several knights have coat of plates with big, round spots on them. Much like the picrute above. Most likely they are washers to prevent the rivets fron going through the fabric/leather covering. The main fault with the picture above is that the soldier seem to have a loose garment whereas it should be a much tighter fit. and the "rings" och whatever to call them should be sitting in rows along the edges of the plates underneath. Undoftunately Mr. McBride was not always the best at listening to the authors descriptions... This is not the only picture in which he has done something similar. If you take a look in "Medieval Scandinavian Armies" you will find a strange detail like this in virtually every colourplate in the books...

So it's most likely just a VERY large amount of artistic freedom in displaying a coat of plates...
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Patrick Lawrence





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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes it seems like he did use a lot of artistic license.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Sorry did not mean it to come across like it was. I was just in a hurry when I replied. That's a problem with forums a lot of times you cant tell how something was said.


Cool. Just didn't want you misunderstanding the intent of the post.
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Patrick Lawrence





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PostPosted: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think I found the illustration he based that on or one very much like it. http://books.google.com/books?id=_8rM-0MQv5MC...mp;f=false
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
.... Studded armour as defined in D&D never existed historically...



Dan, what about this museum piece?
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http:/...CBAQ9QEwAA

date of manufacture, materials used, all known and backed up with documentation from the period!
Wink Razz
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Eric Hejdström




Location: Visby, Sweden
Joined: 13 Mar 2007

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PostPosted: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Lawrence wrote:
I think I found the illustration he based that on or one very much like it. http://books.google.com/books?id=_8rM-0MQv5MC...mp;f=false


Not the illustration I had in mind but one can certainly see why the above "reconstruction" might have come from...

The manuscript I had in mind is "The Romance of Alexander" (MS. Bodl. 264) from Bodelian library.
As you can see in some of the pictures below the coat of plates is quite loose from the waist down. Mostly ar though tight fitting and ends at the hip or higher. The rivets and/or washers are quite large. This proportion must be carefully considered as artistic freedom too, but most likely it was an important feature of the garment so the artist wanted to be sure to get all the details in the picture, even if this ment that actual size had to be reconsidered.

Some examples..
http://image.ox.ac.uk/images/bodleian/ms.bodl.264/51v.jpg
http://image.ox.ac.uk/images/bodleian/ms.bodl.264/59r.jpg - Just a few CoP but several other interesting features regarding gaunlets, surcotes and falchions...
http://image.ox.ac.uk/images/bodleian/ms.bodl.264/60r.jpg
http://image.ox.ac.uk/images/bodleian/ms.bodl.264/66r.jpg - Especially lower left side...


Last edited by Eric Hejdström on Thu 03 Dec, 2009 6:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I think I found the illustration he based that on or one very much like it. http://books.google.com/books?id=_8rM-0MQv5MC...mp;f=false


Pat, you may be correct, there, I beleive Mr. McBride has used that image one other time, in the Osprey title German Medieval Armies, 1300-1500 I think, representing a coat of plates.
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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a picture of the carving. http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi00089a09a.jpg
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