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Boris R.





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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject: a burgonet with glasses         Reply with quote

i found some pictures from the Detroit Institute of Arts posted on flickr by someone named THoog (maybe someone from this board?) of this higly unusual burgonet, apparantly it has glasses integrated in the visor, you can clearly see the reflection on them:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3277/2556897727_780438261d.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2557720152_474c025e66.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3041/2557720304_37b88f547b.jpg

it only states that it was made in South Germany ~ 1550.

I personally had never seen, nor heard of something like this, is this possibly a later reproduction, or maybe 19.century "upgrade"?

or maybe the original owner had a thing for reading during the battle
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't know about the helm but eyeglasses have been around for a lot longer than what most people assume:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasses

Seems like one can go back to the 13th century for the origin of eyeglasses although I would think it would be mostly for the very rich and maybe mostly at first for reading rather than every day wear with frames.

Very early use even in Egyptian times.

Glass fitted helm would seem useful for a very nearsighted knight or as an original way to block the ocular to protect the eyes maybe ? Thick enough the glass might not be too fragile or easily broken ?

Si it may very well be something period and not a later addition ?

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Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Thu 26 Nov, 2009 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Boris R.





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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
an original way to block the ocular to protect the eyes maybe ?


hah! i knew that riot squad cannot be complimented on that idea

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Chris Gilman




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 3:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure these are not reflections. They are spots of light coming through the lining holes in the back of the helmet and in the last profile, through the other ocular.
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Jeff Kaisla




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 4:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The third picture is definitely a reflection, you can see he other occular behind the reflection so it cant be that.
Very interesting, it would be interesting to find out where it is on display, see how thick the glass is and if there are actually clamps or grooves incorporated into the helm to prove that glass was meant to be there when it was made and not some modern addition.
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Scott S.




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was just scrutinizing these pics in PShop and I have to say I don't believe there's glass either.

In the first two pics what look like specular reflections I believe are the holes toward the back of the helmet, and the gap between the helmet, facemask and visor in the first one. And while the third pic looks most like glass, I think it may be an incidental highlight from the rather blurry breastplate in the background.

Mostly 'tho, that would have to be a very thin set of curved lenses, (at least as thin as a wineglass) and it would be amazingly scratch-free, would it not?

Beautiful helmet regardless! The eyes absolutely seem to have a "Darth Vader" look going on in those photos.


Last edited by Scott S. on Thu 26 Nov, 2009 4:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Gilman wrote:
I'm pretty sure these are not reflections. They are spots of light coming through the lining holes in the back of the helmet and in the last profile, through the other ocular.


Seems possible that it's an optical illusion and just looks like a reflection ...... but at first glance it sure does look like a reflection. Wink

It would be nice to be sure which before investing into pages and pages of comments/speculation about glass inserts. Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud

Anyway to confirm the presence of glass here ?

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Boris R.





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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Gilman wrote:
I'm pretty sure these are not reflections. They are spots of light coming through the lining holes in the back of the helmet and in the last profile, through the other ocular.


hmm now that you've mentioned it, it does look that way, WTF?!

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd have to agree it that it isn't glass. The first several times I looked at the first two pics, all I could see was light through holes, as has been pointed out. Glass wasn't obvious to me. The third pic could have been glass if I used my imagination. Happy

I believe the third pic isn't reflection either, just the fauld of the breastplate behind it (or some other piece of armour in the case).

Happy

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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 11:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with the assessment above, that there is definitely no glass in that visor. It doesn't even look like it in the first two pictures at all, and in the third, it kind of seems like it, but only kind of. It is an optical illusion.

I was expecting something much more crazy-looking, like that helmet given to Henry VIII by Maximilian with the brass spectacles and ram's horns.

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Michael B.
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 11:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think it's installed in the helm. I do think there is a possible reflection, but I'm thinking it's part of the display stand, possibly sealing the helm, or occulars?
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Daniel Sullivan




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Nov, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have to agree with Chad and others. The head-on view shows either holes for a lining or holes in the left cheek pieces for hearing. These holes are pretty common on armets, burgonets and close helmets of the period, In the side view one is seeing the fauld of the piece behind it.

As the saying goes, " If you hear hoof beats expect to see a herd of horse, not zebra."

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Jeff Kaisla




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Nov, 2009 10:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

well I have to admit, I'm not entirely convinced either way, To me it does look like a reflection but I suppose it could be the fauld of the breastplate.....really tough to say.
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Chris Gilman




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Nov, 2009 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a Chamfron in the back and the light visible trough the occular is comming from the "nose" bump. Also, the lacing holes in the back of the helmet are clearly visible in the profile. This is a falling buff, so why would you have a glass piece fit into it to display it? No, there is clearly no glass fitted to this helm, it is an optical illusion.
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