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David Huggins




Location: UK
Joined: 25 Jul 2007

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov, 2009 11:44 am    Post subject: Bamburg sword         Reply with quote

Following the 'Affordable pattern welded sword blade' thread.

A fellow member of the Early Medieval Group that I belong, Dennis Riley attended on a recent conference lecture titled 'Current Thinking in Anglo-Saxon Iron Production and Use' and produced his own small report on the conferance for interested Group members. In a footnote he states 'a find of a pattern welded sword from Bamburgh Castle was calculated to have been made up from approximetly 72 strips of iron and steel'

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Dave

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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov, 2009 10:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would like to know if he commented on the pattern of the sword itself. i.e. Was the center made from twisted rods?
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Accordingly to "Reclaiming the blade" doccumentary, central core of this sword is made of "six strads of iron which are worked and twisted and welded togeather".
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David Huggins




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 2:43 am    Post subject: Bamburgh         Reply with quote

Indeed Artis , my friend, ever the old cynic replied ' re;- the bamburgh sword, it was a foot note in the conference and was unfortunatly not expanded upon (merely a passing comment), i cant remember which speaker made the comment but you have to take it on face value, he was an archaeologist and they are sometimes prone to guilding the lily! '

Laughing Out Loud

Perhaps the speaker is aware of research developments into the sword.

best
Dave

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 4:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What I make up out of the description (like is article http://www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk/news/Bamb...1578708.jp) is that it's got 6 billets of probably torsion damast (described as "six strands of carburized iron"). The news articles on the sword describe it as a one of a kind, as others have 4. Naturally anyone familiar with patternwelded swords will know that 6 billets is not at all unique, and actually quite common particularly amongst older blades.
Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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David Huggins




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009 4:44 am    Post subject: Bamburg sword         Reply with quote

As Patrick Barta's displays very well in his pattern welded sword production on his web site,although the forging/welding of the components of each billet does not appear to be shown as I recall.
best

Dave

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Owen Bush
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Nov, 2009 4:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have held this blade (or stump thereof) and it is as unremarkable as any piece of rusty metal in the corner of the forge floor .
The X-rays however are truly beautifull , It is indeed 6 core of interupted twists and possably 6 over a centre strip over 6 . The X-rays I saw were not binocular so I could not tell if it was 6 or 6 over 6 . The twisting was neat and finley executed .It is on my list to remake and must have been a Northrumbrian treasure in its time .

forging soul into steel .

www.owenbush.co.uk the home of bushfire forge school of smithing .
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R D Moore




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Nov, 2009 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An article in the Burwick Advertiser published on 21 June 2006: http://www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk/news/Bamb...1578708.jp said The Royal Armouries was intending to do a 3D image of the sword. Has this been done yet?
"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Fri 27 Nov, 2009 9:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

R D Moore wrote:
An article in the Burwick Advertiser published on 21 June 2006: http://www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk/news/Bamb...1578708.jp said The Royal Armouries was intending to do a 3D image of the sword. Has this been done yet?


Again, in the " Reclaiming the Blade" they show the 3D image several times. I am not sure if it wold be permitted to printscreen that image and show it here, otherwise I coudl do that, as it does seem very interesting.
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R D Moore




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Nov, 2009 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:
What I make up out of the description (like is article http://www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk/news/Bamb...1578708.jp).


My apology, Jeroen. I repeated your post!

Artis:
Thanks for the referral. I reviewed the RTB segment on the sword but my dvd didn't show a 3D image of the construction. I was hoping we could know if it was 6 side by side or 6 over 6 as Owen mentioned above.

"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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Derek Estabrook




Location: Alexandria, Virginia
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Nov, 2009 1:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It wonder how recent the data about the number of strands is. The idea of a huge number of strands being forged into one piece is one I heard quite a bit about in older material sources, but most recent tests and documentation usually steers away from it. One test I heard about where dozen of strips were tied together and attempted to be forge welded together was a catastrophic failure so unless I hear more detailed information I'm probably going to write it off as either old data or untested supposition.
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Nov, 2009 2:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Derek Estabrook wrote:
It wonder how recent the data about the number of strands is. The idea of a huge number of strands being forged into one piece is one I heard quite a bit about in older material sources, but most recent tests and documentation usually steers away from it. One test I heard about where dozen of strips were tied together and attempted to be forge welded together was a catastrophic failure so unless I hear more detailed information I'm probably going to write it off as either old data or untested supposition.
They aren't welded together in one go. In early medieval times first they made billets of usually 7 layers (4 iron, 3 steel). These are welded together forged to length and then twisted. These billets are then forged together to form the core, with additional steel edges welded onto the sides. However, forgewelding loads of strands together at ones is not impossible. Many current bladesmiths use cable for patternwelded blades and according to them it's one of the easiest ways to start patternwelding.
Jeroen Zuiderwijk
- Bronze age living history in the Netherlands
- Barbarian metalworking
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Derek Estabrook




Location: Alexandria, Virginia
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Nov, 2009 9:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes I fully agree with you, however I was bringing up the point that the idea of many strands of wire is an older theory not often espoused recently (largely due to practical tests) when a lot of the material was scholarly and conjectural usually without the benefit of hands on testing. Because of this I am guessing the number of strands cited in the document about the Bamburg sword is either outdated or based off older source material.
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R D Moore




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PostPosted: Sun 29 Nov, 2009 8:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Derek Estabrook wrote:
Yes I fully agree with you, however I was bringing up the point that the idea of many strands of wire is an older theory not often espoused recently (largely due to practical tests) when a lot of the material was scholarly and conjectural usually without the benefit of hands on testing. Because of this I am guessing the number of strands cited in the document about the Bamburg sword is either outdated or based off older source material.


Hi Derek,
I am having a somewhat difficult time following your line of thought as it relates to this particular sword. I'm sceptical of what I read,too, but in this case Owen Bush has confirmed the 6 strand construction. And as Jeroen has stated earlier, twisted strands of iron and steel have been documented many times - Ian Petereson's book "Swords of the Viking Age" comes to mind (color plates 1 and 2). If what you are saying is that, in the past, these types of "facts" were presented as such by scholarly people through intellectual decsision rather than a thourough examination of the artifacts then I can agree with that. Thank heaven we have the scientific tools available to us that exist now.

Interesting sword.

"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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Richard Furrer
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Location: Sturgeon Bay, WI
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2009 10:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello All,
For those interested in the Bamburgh sword I would refer you to a possible reconstruction here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18365


Has Dennis Riley published anything on Anglo-Saxon iron? I'd like to read it.

Ric

Ric Furrer
Sturgeon Bay, WI
www.doorcountyforgeworks.com
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