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Ben P.




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 11:39 am    Post subject: I:33 questions (please help)         Reply with quote

Would the techniques have been used by Milites? Would they have been usable from horseback? How would they be changed if they were used from horseback? How would having a shield (like a thureos) strapped on to the offarm have affected fighting with the techniques shown in the I:33?

Since the swords depicted are similiar to a Byzantine Spathion would the Byzantine have used techniques like the ones depicted in the I:33?
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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The techniques of sword and buckler combat would certainly have been used by men of the knightly class, but this was not a fully-armored form, it was largely a method of unarmored street fighting. It could have been used by lower-class troops in partial armor, of course; many of them carried bucklers.

It would never be used on horseback, and it would never be performed with the buckler strapped to the arm.

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Hugh
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Ben P.




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 2:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:

It would never be used on horseback, and it would never be performed with the buckler strapped to the arm.


I never said buckler I said a thureos
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben P. wrote:
Hugh Knight wrote:

It would never be used on horseback, and it would never be performed with the buckler strapped to the arm.


I never said buckler I said a thureos


Replace buckler with thureos and what Hugh said is still probably correct, though questions of this nature are entirely subjective.

Did the Byzantines use the exact techniques depicted in I.33? I doubt it. However, there are techniques and general martial "truths" in I.33 that will be similar across any martial art that consists of fighting with implements in each hand...
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: I:33 questions (please help)         Reply with quote

Ben P. wrote:
Would the techniques have been used by Milites? Would they have been usable from horseback? How would they be changed if they were used from horseback? How would having a shield (like a thureos) strapped on to the offarm have affected fighting with the techniques shown in the I:33?

Since the swords depicted are similiar to a Byzantine Spathion would the Byzantine have used techniques like the ones depicted in the I:33?


why do you think are Spathion?
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Ben P.




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: I:33 questions (please help)         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Ben P. wrote:
Would the techniques have been used by Milites? Would they have been usable from horseback? How would they be changed if they were used from horseback? How would having a shield (like a thureos) strapped on to the offarm have affected fighting with the techniques shown in the I:33?

Since the swords depicted are similiar to a Byzantine Spathion would the Byzantine have used techniques like the ones depicted in the I:33?


why do you think are Spathion?


Well the blades in the I:33 are one-handed cruciform blades, Byzantine spathions are one-handed cruciform blades
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Craig Shackleton




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know anything about Byzantine weapons, but the Krakow Gladiatoria manual has an image of two fighters with messers and hungarian shields, standing in fifth and sixth ward almost exactly how I interpret them from I.33. The shields are strappedto the upper arm and then gripped in the hand.

That said, I think that these shields would seriously hamper my ability to execute the most interesting plays from I.33.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Shackleton wrote:
I don't know anything about Byzantine weapons, but the Krakow Gladiatoria manual has an image of two fighters with messers and hungarian shields, standing in fifth and sixth ward almost exactly how I interpret them from I.33. The shields are strappedto the upper arm and then gripped in the hand.

That said, I think that these shields would seriously hamper my ability to execute the most interesting plays from I.33.


A shield strapped to the arm has it's own techniques I assume that are also effective but can't use many of the buckler techniques.

The larger center grip one handed shield like the Viking shield might have more 1:33 usable techniques.

The strapped to the arm shield would gain from being generally larger in size so what is lost in available 1:33 techniques is compensated by the less need to move the shield as it give more coverage.

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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: I:33 questions (please help)         Reply with quote

Ben P. wrote:


Well the blades in the I:33 are one-handed cruciform blades, Byzantine spathions are one-handed cruciform blades



one-handed cruciform blades
Can you explain in other words, please? In my translation in Italian does not make much sense. Happy
Ciao
Maurizio
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David Lohnes




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PostPosted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 9:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A one-handed sword shaped like a cross. (cruciform = in the form of a cross)

That is to say, your typical European sword with a long straight blade and a cross guard perpendicular to the blade. Not a curved blade like a katana or a straight blade with no real cross guard like a Roman gladius.
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Lohnes wrote:
A one-handed sword shaped like a cross. (cruciform = in the form of a cross)

That is to say, your typical European sword with a long straight blade and a cross guard perpendicular to the blade. Not a curved blade like a katana or a straight blade with no real cross guard like a Roman gladius.


David, thanks for the explanation.

Ben,
Cruciform blade: if you mean this is not sufficient to consider the swords I: 33 as Byzantine.
there are no many spathion in museums, but there is a large bibliography.
Ciao
Maurizio
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 10:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
David Lohnes wrote:
A one-handed sword shaped like a cross. (cruciform = in the form of a cross)

That is to say, your typical European sword with a long straight blade and a cross guard perpendicular to the blade. Not a curved blade like a katana or a straight blade with no real cross guard like a Roman gladius.


David, thanks for the explanation.

Ben,
Cruciform blade: if you mean this is not sufficient to consider the swords I: 33 as Byzantine.
there are no many spathion in museums, but there is a large bibliography.
Ciao
Maurizio


Lack of a cross guard or a very short one might have some effect on what techniques would work with 1:33 but a similar system(s) we have no record of may have been used with swords without guards.

Any and all cultures using sword and shield or sword and buckler must have had some fencing systems for their use, these might be very different from 1:33 but then again some things are universal and could have been independently discovered or rediscovered throughout history and in different parts of the World.

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