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E Stafford




PostPosted: Fri 13 Nov, 2009 12:34 pm    Post subject: The wind         Reply with quote

This came up in the SCA thread, and I wasn't able to address it there. Also, a side question completely off topic.

The first question is, what is the wind, as used in longswords? Someone said that all techniques started from "the wind", and I am confused. The primary reason for this is I rapier fight, as opposed to longsword.

Second question, why is it that forums expand when I log in? When I do so, a 3 page forum suddenly expands to 10. ?? Eek! Confused And, is there any thing I can do about it? Thanks in advance.

edit: corrected grammar
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Nov, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a good intro:

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_arms_gls.html

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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E Stafford




PostPosted: Fri 13 Nov, 2009 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ok. So, you come to cross swords, where doesn't matter, and do a disengage, more or less. Question 1a answered, but why do ALL moves begin from the wind? You either catch the opponent on the downstroke of the blade, or you get him on the wind.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 13 Nov, 2009 1:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think you're confusing "winding" and "binding". When two swords are in contact along some portion of their blades, that's termed a bind. Winding is any action wherby you attempt to gain leverage and control over your opponent's blade with your own, which enables you to slice or stab them in the process.

Not all actions start from the bind. Initially, two swordsman fighting will not be in a bind. The tendency, however, is for binds to occur, particularly when your opponent tries to displace one of your attacks. As another example, if I throw a Zornhaw (a descending, diagonal cut, the one you'd instinctively make with a sword) and my opponent strikes one at me, so long as both of us are striking at our opponent, our blades will contact in a bind. If, however, my opponent starts to distort the line of his strike in response to my attack, a bind will still probably occur, but the position of our two swords will be more haphazard and awkward than what's depicted in the fencing manuals.
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Jesse Eaton





Joined: 15 Feb 2008

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PostPosted: Fri 13 Nov, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig said

'When two swords are in contact along some portion of their blades, that's termed a bind.'

Let's clarify that a bit. The 'bind' is the place where two blades remain in contact. As opposed to a versetsen or parry where contact is made to change the direction of an attack. Saying that 'all techniques started from "the wind"' is a bit of an exaggeration. especially since you need to bind (binden) your opponents blade in order to wind (winden) into a strike. So, a wind is a strike that occurs from a bind. For example: Two opponents strike down (ober hau) from high guard (vom tag). As the blades connect (i.e. bind) one opponent spins his hilt to the left (i.e. winds to the blade to the right). He now has his opponents blade bound and has wounded his tip towards his opponent, ready for a thrust to the face or torso. If he doesn't do this very skillfully, his opponent may simply wind against his bind and force some other defensive action. You see how this is going? A lot depends on careful positioning and timing. Bind and wind techniques pervade both Italian and German schools of fighting (it seems to me to be a little more true of German). As opposed to rapier fencing, which most binds occur with an secondary, the two handed longsword techniques require thorough use of the wind. What really messes with modern fencers, especially collegiate, is that where fencers are trying to make a 'clean' i.e. untouched strike, Longsword fencers are usually trying to make contact with their opponents blade in order to ensure that their opponents blade is under control and then use it as a lever (i.e. wind) into a safe and often brutally close and powerful strike.

BTW:There's some interesting work going on at ARMA where it seems they've shifted their focus from strikes and wards to positions in the crown (Crom). The crown is an area roughly in the shape of a sphere with the center being at about your neck line and where your hands connect when you extend them in a relaxed position. The crown is where most of the winding and binding occurs. Think of it as the center of the chess board. Or since you fight SCA rapier you probably fight in a cone shaped area. A rapier fight pits two opposing cone shapes jocking for superior angle and position. Long sword has more of a shpere because of the winding techniques....Hope I'm not confusing you.
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Jesse Eaton





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PostPosted: Fri 13 Nov, 2009 10:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

BTW my posts have the same effect....either that or hardly a peep Happy don't know why...
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E Stafford




PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jesse Eaton wrote:


'When two swords are in contact along some portion of their blades, that's termed a bind.'

Let's clarify that a bit. The 'bind' is the place where two blades remain in contact. As opposed to a versetsen or parry where contact is made to change the direction of an attack. Saying that 'all techniques started from "the wind"' is a bit of an exaggeration. especially since you need to bind (binden) your opponents blade in order to wind (winden) into a strike. So, a wind is a strike that occurs from a bind. For example: Two opponents strike down (ober hau) from high guard (vom tag). As the blades connect (i.e. bind) one opponent spins his hilt to the left (i.e. winds to the blade to the right). He now has his opponents blade bound and has wounded his tip towards his opponent, ready for a thrust to the face or torso. If he doesn't do this very skillfully, his opponent may simply wind against his bind and force some other defensive action. You see how this is going? A lot depends on careful positioning and timing. Bind and wind techniques pervade both Italian and German schools of fighting (it seems to me to be a little more true of German). As opposed to rapier fencing, which most binds occur with an secondary, the two handed longsword techniques require thorough use of the wind. What really messes with modern fencers, especially collegiate, is that where fencers are trying to make a 'clean' i.e. untouched strike, Longsword fencers are usually trying to make contact with their opponents blade in order to ensure that their opponents blade is under control and then use it as a lever (i.e. wind) into a safe and often brutally close and powerful strike.


I obviously omitted part of the quote.

Ook. So, a wind is just a finding of the sword, and then a disengage into a strike. (I'm using my rapier language.) So, the next question that begs itself is what's to prevent someone counter-winding? When I find the sword, I'd want the sword someplace where, if my rapier doesn't have it covered, my off hand can pick it up. And vice versa. So, what happens if they counter wind you?

postscript edit: I was out today, so wasn't able to reply.
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Greg Coffman




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 7:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

E Stafford wrote:

As opposed to rapier fencing, which most binds occur with an secondary, the two handed longsword techniques require thorough use of the wind.


I don't know what you mean by "secondary," but I would argue that in rapier as well as longsword, a thrust from the bind is preferable to a free thrust.

Jesse Eaton wrote:


Ook. So, a wind is just a finding of the sword, and then a disengage into a strike.

No. A bind is a finding of the sword and a wind is a technique from the bind. This may or may not be a disengagement, but usually you remain on the sword. Remaining on the sword allows maximum control of your opponents sword and thus maximum protection for you while you execute your own technique.

Quote:
So, the next question that begs itself is what's to prevent someone counter-winding?

You are both winding/counter-winding against each other. You work the bind until you have the advantage, or step back and start over.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 7:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Coffman wrote:
E Stafford wrote:

As opposed to rapier fencing, which most binds occur with an secondary, the two handed longsword techniques require thorough use of the wind.


I don't know what you mean by "secondary," but I would argue that in rapier as well as longsword, a thrust from the bind is preferable to a free thrust.

Jesse Eaton wrote:


Ook. So, a wind is just a finding of the sword, and then a disengage into a strike.

No. A bind is a finding of the sword and a wind is a technique from the bind. This may or may not be a disengagement, but usually you remain on the sword. Remaining on the sword allows maximum control of your opponents sword and thus maximum protection for you while you execute your own technique.

Quote:
So, the next question that begs itself is what's to prevent someone counter-winding?

You are both winding/counter-winding against each other. You work the bind until you have the advantage, or step back and start over.


I think this is a good point. It is about gaining leverage and as Greg mentioned, the wind allows you to seek control. Often the thrust is from the wind, or other moves can occur using other aspects of the sword, such as the cross-guard and pommel.

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 10:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

E Stafford wrote:
Ook. So, a wind is just a finding of the sword, and then a disengage into a strike. (I'm using my rapier language.)


To use rapier language, a wind is when your blades have made contact (whether you have found the sword or not), and you move your forte onto your opponent's debole to gain the advantage. Fabris shows an example of this type of action (though he does not call it a wind, since he is not part of the Liechtenauer tradition... in fact, he doesn't have a specific technical term for it) where you and your opponent have made blade contact from the outside, and there is some pressure, so you turn your hand to prima as you lunge, keeping his debole on your forte.

A "bind" is whenever your blades have made contact, whether you have found the sword or not.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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William Carew




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PostPosted: Sun 15 Nov, 2009 1:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
E Stafford wrote:
Ook. So, a wind is just a finding of the sword, and then a disengage into a strike. (I'm using my rapier language.)


To use rapier language, a wind is when your blades have made contact (whether you have found the sword or not), and you move your forte onto your opponent's debole to gain the advantage.


Hi Bill,

I now take a very holistic view of winden in light of the full range of actions encapsulated within. They key aspect of winding is simply 'turning' or 'twisting' in such a way as to threaten the opponent with the weapon without leaving onself vulnerable (hence why blade contact is often, but not always, maintained).

I don't think moving the forte against the opponent's debole is strictly necessary at all times in winden. Many winding techniques can be executed by turning around the initial bind point without the need to try establish a definative forte on debole leverage advantage: a good example is the duplieren, which is often executed forte on forte and hence does not require the capture of the opponent's debole. More examples are found in Meyer's winden, especially his 'winding in and out' (which duplieren is related to) which at times involves winding around a single pivot point in the bind - there's no need to try and capture the debole with the forte since it is faster and more efficient to immediately turn (wind) in behind the opposing steel in order to strike the opponent behind their sword. Safety is maintained by staying in the bind and by the combination of blade placement, body structure (Meyer often tells us to 'lean our head away' as we wind!) and footwork.

All of which is a long winded (no pun intended) way to say, I define winden as turning the sword in the krieg in order to secure a tactical advantage over the opponent whilst remaining safe. Said advantage can be in leverage or it can be angle and line, or both.

Cheers,

Bill

Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Max W.




Location: South Germany
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Nov, 2009 1:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good morning,
i cant hesitate to attend to the explanation brawl Wink

The "Someone said that all techniques started from "the wind"." has already been discussed very well,
but i want to add some more visual information about the Winden.

Joachim Meyer 1570:

Quote:
Das w÷rtlein Winden hei▀t auff gut Teutsch Wenden


As been said Winden translates itself into "turning", and that makes it rather self-explanatory:

Out of the bind after the blades met, you are actually turning your Ort (point) towards your enemys Bl÷▀e (opening).

At first take a look here, a vid helps more than a lot of letters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t6qdBl4EtU and then im trying to explain the actions step by step. The first part of the vid which i'm going to explain is the Winden after the blades met. The second part is about actions from the bind, which usually don't count to the Winden. Even a thrust out of them is a separate action, Winden refers to the Turning and gaining a superior position/leverage.

So here goes the play:

-Yellow vest hews from his right shoulder, red pant counters with Zornhau Ort, yellow notices the danger and shortens his hew to the left side to avoid being hit by the Zornhau.
-Red: Einwinden - He winds into left Ochs his "strong" against the opponents weak part of the blade - gaining leverage and threatening. This is the first Winden.
-Yellod displaces further to his left side.
-Red: Auswinden - He winds into right Ochs, thus "turning" his Ort around the opponents blade and threatens him again. This is the second Winden.
-Yellow can't help himself but pushing red's sword down to avoid the thrust.
-Red winds for the third time, around lowly through the Hut Pflug up again into left Ochs.
-Yellow follows his sword instinctively and finds himself where they began, but red is now even closer and with a much better leverage than right after the first Winden. The play is finally over for him, all his displacing was useless, red's fine Krieg beshamed him above and beneath.
-Red's next action is obvious.

This wonderful play resembles very much the part over the Krieg (war) in Peter von Danzig Cod. 44 A 8, page 14v.
Please excuse me that i dont have an english translation at hand.

Quote:

Das Ist der text vnd die glos von dem krieg

Wes der krieg rempt Oben n den wirt er beschempt

| Glosa | Merck der krieg das sein die winden | vnd die arbait die dar auf get mit dem ort zu den vier pl÷ssen vnd den treib also | wenn du mit dem zor˝haw einhawst | Als pald er denn versetzt so var wol auf mit den armen | vnd wind im den ort ÷m swert oben ein zu der ÷ber˝ pl÷ss seiner lincken seitten | Setzt er denn den ober˝ stich ab so pleib also sten in dem winden mit dem gehultz vor deinem haubt | vnd las den ort nider sincken zu░ der vnder˝ pl÷ss aber seine lincken seitten volgt er denn mit der vor satzu~g deinem swert noch | So suech mit dem ort die vnder ploss seiner recht˝ seitt˝ | Volgt er denn fŘrpas mit der vorsatzung deinem swert noch | So var auff mit dem swert auf dein lincke seitten vnd heng im den ort oben ein zu░ der ÷ber˝ pl÷ss seiner rechten seitten | Also wirt er mit dem krieg oben vnd n den beschempt | Ist das du In anders recht treibst


I hope this helped a bit Happy

sincerely,
Max
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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Sun 15 Nov, 2009 4:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:


A "bind" is whenever your blades have made contact, whether you have found the sword or not.


So true!!

M. Eging
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Nov, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Carew wrote:

Hi Bill,

I now take a very holistic view of winden in light of the full range of actions encapsulated within. They key aspect of winding is simply 'turning' or 'twisting' in such a way as to threaten the opponent with the weapon without leaving onself vulnerable (hence why blade contact is often, but not always, maintained).

I don't think moving the forte against the opponent's debole is strictly necessary at all times in winden. Many winding techniques can be executed by turning around the initial bind point without the need to try establish a definative forte on debole leverage advantage: a good example is the duplieren, which is often executed forte on forte and hence does not require the capture of the opponent's debole. More examples are found in Meyer's winden, especially his 'winding in and out' (which duplieren is related to) which at times involves winding around a single pivot point in the bind - there's no need to try and capture the debole with the forte since it is faster and more efficient to immediately turn (wind) in behind the opposing steel in order to strike the opponent behind their sword. Safety is maintained by staying in the bind and by the combination of blade placement, body structure (Meyer often tells us to 'lean our head away' as we wind!) and footwork.

All of which is a long winded (no pun intended) way to say, I define winden as turning the sword in the krieg in order to secure a tactical advantage over the opponent whilst remaining safe. Said advantage can be in leverage or it can be angle and line, or both.

Cheers,

Bill


Hi Bill,
I 100% agree with you, and in general I view any change towards the four hangers used to gain the advantage over an opponent as a wind. (note that I say "towards", and not "into") Having said that, E Stafford didn't know the term, and was trying to reconcile it into rapier terms to understand, so I was trying to help him get the gist of the most common idea, since he probably is less familiar with terms such as "duplieren" or "mutieren", etc. (and of course a mutieren doesn't require the forte to be moved, either).

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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William Carew




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Nov, 2009 2:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No worries Bill, I hope it didn't seem I was splitting hairs. It's just that in the past I've seen winding defined as strictly a leverage gaining thing, but IMO it is so much more than that, as we seem to agree.

Cheers,

Bill

Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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