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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Nov, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject: Messer, Work in progress         Reply with quote

After many requests I have decided to craft a messer, and thought that you might like to watch this project as it goes along.
Also I would like your input. Please feel free to post. I will be updating the page on my site as I go along, and posting here when I do.

Here is a link to the: CRAFTING THE MESSER page.

I have a rough sketch done with the basic design.

Let me know what you think.

Enjoy!

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Wed 04 Nov, 2009 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can we get an idea of proportions?

M.

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Ken Speed





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PostPosted: Wed 04 Nov, 2009 9:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, It looks like it will be a beautiful piece but my first reaction to the sketch is that either the hilt is too long for the blade or the blade is too short for the hilt.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Nov, 2009 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Along with the comment about the proportions, my own preference would be to go towards something more historical in design. There is so much variety in what history has left us for grossemesser (and Germanic designs from that time period, in general). There's bound to be something that will attract you, let you express yourself, and allow you to create something unique in today's market.
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Nov, 2009 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the rough sketch, the proportions aren't accurate.

Also, I haven't settled on exactly what the hilt will be like yet so any historical pictures or information would be greatly appreciated. Let me know what you think.

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Craig Shackleton




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PostPosted: Wed 04 Nov, 2009 12:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just looking at the sketch without doing any measuring, the proportions look pretty similar to the messers in Leckuchner, at least to me.

I don't know anything about messer scabbards. I like the idea of an extra knife. Is that legit?

My one meaningful comment though is that the sketch shows a lug or wing or whatever that little projection from the crossguard is called. AFAIK, those were always only on the right hand side of the blade, and this one is on the left. I suppose it would make sense for a left-handed messer fighter, though.

I look forward to seeing the results. The world needs more messers.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Nov, 2009 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Potter wrote:
Also, I haven't settled on exactly what the hilt will be like yet so any historical pictures or information would be greatly appreciated. Let me know what you think.


How about this thread: Request for messer pictures.

Happy

ChadA

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Matthew Fedele




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PostPosted: Wed 04 Nov, 2009 2:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Shackleton wrote:
Just looking at the sketch without doing any measuring, the proportions look pretty similar to the messers in Leckuchner, at least to me.

I don't know anything about messer scabbards. I like the idea of an extra knife. Is that legit?


Sure, if you go through the antique gallery here "by knives" were on a lot swords.

I like it Ben, the scabbard design seems well thought out. By knives are handy things, scary weapon, nothing not to like.

Cheers,

Matt
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Nov, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the input, I'll see if I can get a better sketch done in the next day or two.
(I am really with redoing my shop and installing new tooling)

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Anders Backlund




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I'd say the blade needs to be longer. That can't be more then, what, fifteen inches?

I'm of the opposite opinion as Nathan, though: the actual design is fine the way it is. If anything, I'd say its not ahistorical enough. Razz

The point of historical variety is valid, but keep in mind that unless you are specifically striving to make a historical sword, then historical references are still just suggestions at best.

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 9:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll post an updated sketch later today (with the correct proportions 24" blade, 6" hilt) .

I did have a question, what exactly isn't historical about this design?

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As Anders Backlund states, being historical isn't a requirement to making a sword. It's just my preference and my opinion that I offered. I'm also of the opinion that sword makers can learn quite a lot from making a few historical pieces before making their own designs, as knowledge of the past helps create functional and inspired unique designs. Either way, it's a good starting point from which to expand.

Ben Potter wrote:
I did have a question, what exactly isn't historical about this design?

Blacksmith twist on the guard, shaping of the pommel, designs and shaping of scabbard, shaping of the blade is a bit unusual, the nagel is backwards, the recurved guard is an unusual detail (maybe more often found on knives, and certainly falchions, than große messer?)

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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:

Blacksmith twist on the guard, shaping of the pommel, designs and shaping of scabbard, shaping of the blade is a bit unusual, the nagel is backwards, the recurved guard is an unusual detail (maybe more often found on knives, and certainly falchions, than große messer?)


Thanks for the info, I'm still learning about the details on messers.
Actualy, "blacksmith twist" and the pommel shape are found of historical messers,. You are correct about the other details in that they are contemporary with but not necessarily found on messers. And, yes the Nagel IS backwards in the first sketch.

Here is the next one with some of the details corrected(the final scabbard shape and tooling design will come latter.



The blade is 24 in. and the hilt is 6 in. give or take some.

What to you think?

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Please show me examples of the "blacksmith twist" (as I'm calling it for lack of a better term?) on extant original große messer. I just don't recall ever seeing it on one of these. Even contemporary writhen detailing (which I can't recall on these weapons) isn't a twist.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like it would be a very nifty piece.

M.

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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Please show me examples of the "blacksmith twist" (as I'm calling it for lack of a better term?) on extant original große messer. I just don't recall ever seeing it on one of these. Even contemporary writhen detailing (which I can't recall on these weapons) isn't a twist.


Touche Eek!,

Nathan 1, Ben 0

I stand corrected Worried , I was looking at writhen work (if that is the twisted looking work like on many rapiers)
on one of the examples on the thread "pictures of messers" Thanks for the correction.

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Either way, Ben, it's still an extremely attractive design. I don't want to steer you away from it. I just try to help people (to the best of my ability with my limited knowledge) know the context and whatnot. From there, the decisions are for each person to make individually, ya know?

I've really enjoyed the contemporary design elements mixed with historical inspiration that are in each of your pieces. I think you have an artistic eye, for sure.

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Joel Chesser




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 5:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For what it's worth I really like the design as is. I don't know if you are looking for more of a fantasy feel or not, but it seems to have it and I like it. It almost seems like something that one would see in a LOTR movie. It has a historical basis, with very complimentary elements. I'd really like to see this one made. Big Grin
..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

- Luke 22:36
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 10:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is an alternative hilt design, I haven't decided wish I want to use.
Let me know what you think.



 Attachment: 42.43 KB
messer hilt.jpg


Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 11:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The cross-guard is nice, but the curved grip is odd. I can recall seeing a curved grip on one, but it was a long version with a very unusual blade and somewhat questionable authenticity.

I vote cross on #2 with straight grip and "pommel" of #1. The proportions of the cross-guard are a bit unusual in that they're usually more of a proportionally square section on historical samples. Your version will make for a nice and interesting departure.

You're a good artist. Your sketches are always well done.


Check this out, by the way. You might like it. The blade is complex.

A Grosse Messer, circa 1500
Appearing in a Christie's auction catalog, October 1994.


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