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Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
Joined: 02 Sep 2008

Posts: 239

PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 1:40 pm    Post subject: Ring armour from Westminster Psalter?         Reply with quote

i've found this photo in the book "Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight" of D. Edge & J. M. Paddock and was intrigued by the chasseau of the knight: normally I would dismiss them as a stylization of a classical chain mail... pardon, of a classical "mail"... Wink ... but the artist is clearly capable of represent this in manner more familiar, as show in the hauberk.

So is this a true ring armour? From the way they bend around the ties it appears that the chasseau are flexible, like a tissue...

I apologize in advance if this was ever discussed, but I can't find a reference

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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 2:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You can't make ring armour look like this illustration. Mail is actually more flexible than ring armour can ever be and is the only metallic armour that could possibly conform around the feet in this way. Note also the fastenings at the back of the calves - the only armour fastened in this manner is mail.
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 3:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd suggest two possible explanations for the difference between the two parts of armour shown:

1) The artist wished to make the piece more visually appealing by less repetition. For instance the Bayeux tapestry has a tremendous variety of representations of mail.

2) The mail on the legs is of a different type. Such as bigger rings; it isn't double mail like the hauberk etc. This is necessarily speculative since we have too little data to associate and representation of mail with named type from period sources.

But I see no reason to think it is ring armour - in part for the reasons that Dan give - but also because there is simply no solid evidence of "ring" armour.

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with all above about it undoubtedly being mail. The time frame of the image and prevalent form of armour it should have depicted is not really in question. I am wondering if the orientation of the rings may have appeared differently there in actual use due to the tight fastening behind the calves. (I have not seen real period leggings and wonder if it may have made sense to change the weave orientation or "hang" due to the method of fastening.) The artist's attention to detail (scabbard and pommel details, overall scale of the primary subject) does seem very good even if stylistic composition was a likely factor.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Brian L Brown




Location: Oregon
Joined: 22 Oct 2009

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It seems to me that the greaves in question are not even metal but very likely tooled leather. There are other pieces of art with simular outline to the greaves that have no ring based designs on them.
Brian Brown
www.brianbrownarmoury.com
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Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
Joined: 02 Sep 2008

Posts: 239

PostPosted: Sat 31 Oct, 2009 3:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps the different representation is due to the mail leggins being more tight, so the single rings would stand up more than in the hauberk.
There is also the cloth leggins under the mail: they appear to report the motif of the hauberk...
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 31 Oct, 2009 5:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian L Brown wrote:
It seems to me that the greaves in question are not even metal but very likely tooled leather. There are other pieces of art with simular outline to the greaves that have no ring based designs on them.


Tooled leather is not fastened at the calves like the armour in the illustration. Only mail is fastened in this manner.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 31 Oct, 2009 5:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Side issue: The horse's hoof loks like it has some sort of horse shoe with cleats or spikes.
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