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Kyle Kurth





Joined: 07 Jan 2009

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2009 5:59 pm    Post subject: Scottish Armour         Reply with quote

I was curious on what the scottish of around the 14th-15th century would wear to battle? Did they wear chain maille, leather, plate? I was thinking about trying to put together a scottish kit for combat and for festivals. Thank you.
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David Wilson




Location: In a van down by the river
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A Scottish what?

Highlander? Lowlander? Borderer?

Knight? Common soldier? Mercenary?

It varied greatly, depending on who, what, and where....

David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe

Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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Kyle Kurth





Joined: 07 Jan 2009

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PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A highlander I guess. I am not very well informed as you can tell so anything will be useful to me or any links. Big Grin
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lowlanders for that period would be more or less equipped like their southern counterparts. By the 1320s Bruce is requiring his men to be armed and armoured in ways that compare to other european powers.

Highlanders are a bit out of the normal loop. They were appearingly behind much of Scotland, let alone Britain in general. My guess is perhaps only the heads of a highland clan would be in more up to date armour. Accounts into the 16th or 17th talk about them being armoured in very little. Flodden comes to mind where a force of highlanders is basically destroyed due to lack of armour.

You can check out the parl. rolls of Scotland which are not online and cover the period you are looking at.

RPM
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Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
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Posts: 252

PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Effigy slabs as well as written evidence from the period in question suggest that the Highland armoured elite wore mail and quilted armour throughout the Middle Ages apparently they never adopted plate armour.
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David Wilson




Location: In a van down by the river
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 774

PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_armies_scots.html

Here's an article, here on myArmoury, about Renassaince (I know I misspelled that!) Scottish armies, just a little later than you're asking about, but it covers things pretty darn well....

http://swordforum.com/articles/history/the_me...oldier.php

Here's an article from Sword Forum that's closer to your period, more specifically about Highland and Irish warriors (who would have been armed & armored similarly)....

I'm gonna go look up some of the grave slab pics and see if I can post them here....

David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe

Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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David Wilson




Location: In a van down by the river
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That wasn't too difficult, there are several here on myArmoury!

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....&pos=6

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....&pos=7

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....&pos=8

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....amp;pos=17

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....amp;pos=34

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....amp;pos=36 (not a grave slab, but a period illustration)

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....amp;pos=43

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....amp;pos=58 (the Royal seal of John Baliol)

David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe

Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kyle Kurth wrote:
A highlander I guess. I am not very well informed as you can tell so anything will be useful to me or any links. Big Grin


No blue paint, no kilts, no family tartans, no giant swords (yet)

The Highlands had closer ties to the nearby Irish than the lowlands, borders or the men of the Isles so you'll find their clothing and weapons follow popular styles of Ireland.

The base clansman didn't seem to have much in the way of protective gear, it was the warrior class that wore the Highland Cotun, maille and a iron cap. (Those are Cotuns being worn on the Effigies)

The Highland cotun is a long quilted linen garment with a deerskin cover. It's a lot like the lowland long quilted linen garment know as a aketon which really is a pretty standard cloth based armour style for all the basic fighting men of Europe of the era. These "stuffed with loose fiber" garments evolved in to the shorter 20-30 layer jack of the 15 century solider.


Cheers,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 3:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

this image
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/5725.html
Seems to show some sort of splinted forarm defence, or am I just looking at it funny?
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Funny...

Irish style of maille over cotun.

Cheers,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Oct, 2009 1:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

O.k. so the groves running "in line" with the forearm are quilting in the fabric?
Yep, now I see it. Matches the look at the "hem" of the skirt.
Thanks
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James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Oct, 2009 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sirs-Plate was very rare, only worn by the very wealthy.. If you read "Wars of the Bruces" by Colm Mc Namee, one of the first things Robert did after capturing a sea port was to write to the hanse towns requesting that they sell arms and armour. There are a number of letters in the book from Edward II asking the Duke of Flsnders,and the Rhineland towns to Not to sell arms and armour to the scots. Also there are effigies of western scott knights wearing only a Helmet and long quilted coat.Most scot arms amd armour were captured from the English or purchased from Germany with the loot and ransoms from the English.
Ja68ms
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Oct, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James,

Yes and no. I am not sure that is actually true without some clarification. It is hardly uncommon that leaders send such letters for supplies, not just arms and armour but victuals as well, when planning a major offensive. You see French kings doing the same in the late 13th to get ready with wars in Flanders. Hardly means the French knight was not armoured just that the French king had big plans. If you place this occurrence with your next example it makes sense. No English or Irish trade means you have to get it somewhere.

Boycotts on arms and armour are nearly the first thing to be done in war on your enemies. They also bar wheat, barley, wine and all types of other foods at this time as well but that does not mean they did not have them in Scotland either. This is much more a political posture than anything. You are limiting their possible avenues of weapons and armour true but more so limiting everything that might be useful for war. If you can get others not to sell even better.

There are plenty of local records in Scotland to indicate plate was not rare among those you'd expect to see it, for example the knightly class-so yes the wealthy. That said though requirements for plate in the 1320s go fairly low down the wealth scale so technically they should have had some plate, helmets and gauntlets for example for the front ranks of spearmen which were not per se hugely wealthy. Problem with this group is they tend not to have many inventories we can see if the law was fulfilled though one cannot just assume the opposite with some evidence they should have.


RPM
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Chris West




Location: Las Vegas
Joined: 13 Sep 2009

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PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kind of on this topic and a little off, I am wanting to make a skirt somewhat like Stephen's from Braveheart but am finding a good place to find the cloth and possibly a pattern. I'm sure I can figure out a pattern but if anyone has a good idea for me much thanks.
Add another body to the body toll, God please bless this poor bastard's soul.
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Thom R.




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov, 2009 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nat Lamb wrote:
this image
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/5725.html
Seems to show some sort of splinted forarm defence, or am I just looking at it funny?


Apologies for the minor technical correction for Nat and David but in that particular case, the Burke effigy from Glinsk, that is most likely splinted forearm defence - as there are signs of rivets and there is mail shown underneath the quilted/splinted arm defence. ref Hunt, Irish Medieval Figure Sculpture 1200-1600, Ireland: Irish University Press, 1974 and my personal observations Wink

However that effigy is from Ireland in the early 16th c and not Scotland and it is not clear what the effigy portrays...... be careful with google on that one, several of the top links that google will bring up on Ballinakill Abbey have a lot of mis-information in them, particularly on the dating of the effigy - there is no doubt that the effigy itself was carved in the early 16th c, but we don't know who is being portrayed, and there is an ersatz date in roman numerals at the base (which could be later "grafitti"). One possibility is that it does indeed honor someone buried at the abbey in the early 16th c. The other possibility is that it was commissioned in the early 16th c to honor the original Norman deBurgh's (Burke) of the 12th c, is not tied to any specific burial. Yet in either case it may still show contemporary 16th c gallowglass type armour. tr
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Josh MacNeil




Location: Massachusetts, USA
Joined: 23 Jul 2008

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov, 2009 11:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just did a search and came across this link on how to make a cotun like the ones depicted in the grave effigies.

http://www.stoccata.org/stoccata.nsf/Pages/e6...amp;Click=

Looks petty labor intensive, but appears to yield good results when done right. According to the tutorial, the construction method sacrifices shoulder and underarm defense (padding) for mobility. Just speculation on my part, but maybe the entire arm of some period cotuns were left un-padded for arm mobility, which would account for the splinted forearm defense seen in one of the above effigies. Thoughts...?
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris West wrote:
Kind of on this topic and a little off, I am wanting to make a skirt somewhat like Stephen's from Braveheart but am finding a good place to find the cloth and possibly a pattern. I'm sure I can figure out a pattern but if anyone has a good idea for me much thanks.


If I remember the dress of this character correctly, it looked more like 16th c. Gallowglas clothing than something from the 13th c. I would think it would be fairly easy to make but do not have a source for a pattern. Material could be almost any medium weight wool or wool blend (easier and cheaper to find).

Chris, keep in mind that Braveheart, while it was a good tale, was just that, a tale. Historically it was one of the most thoroughly inaccurate movies of all time on the subject of Scotland.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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