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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 12:32 am    Post subject: Diamond-patterned plate armour         Reply with quote

Here is a Spanish portrait of an unknown gentleman wearing a type of armour I have never before seen. It is either studded all over with a diamond pattern, or painted to look that way. Does anyone have any more information about this kind of decoration, or any examples of surviving examples?


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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 12:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd say it is enameled that way - hellish ammount of work has gone into it in any case.
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 4:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My guess is that it was "gilded" but then with silver instead of gold.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 5:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks mostly like paint or enamel from the painting ( Not a high resolution " period " digital pic " JOKE " i.e. a lot depends on the painter showing or not showing some volume in the triangles, raised or not ??? We are seeing art and not direct evidence from the painting although if this armour or a similar one is still available for study it would give more certain information ).

The triangles may be slightly raised or recessed but don't look like full embossing to me although I have seen pics of an armour where the whole surface was made up of closely spaced pyramids.

In any case very attractive effect but I wonder how these where maintained in the field assuming they where taken into serious battle ? I guess if you are super rich if your splendid armour ends up scratched or dented you could afford to get it repaired or just get new armour.

It sort of makes me thing of having a Ferrari and waiting for that first scratch or the new car smell to fade ! The Billionaires among us just get a new Ferrari !

Oh, sorry for the digression there. Wink Sad

Getting back to the question with another question ? Could the dark triangles be deeply blued ? Maintenance would be hellish and how would it have been done as I assume that in period any bluing would be hot bluing and not a chemical bluing ? ( Did they have chemical bluing in period ? In any case hot bluing is more protective and deeper and more attractive).

Selectively heating some triangles would seem like not possible to me so if bluing I assume that the entire surface would start out blued and the in the white triangle would be polished back to bright ?

Enamel would be easier to maintain and touch up I think !?

EDITED: Yes some form of gilding does seem like a possibility.

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Eric Hejdström




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 5:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would think that the easies way to do this work would be etching the surface. If the surface is etched you can always rub pigment over the etched area to get it darker. An enameled surface is quite brittle, any bend would probably crack the enamel and make it fall off.
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Jonathan Atkin





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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 6:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nothing to really add but you see these pictures and I say to myself what I wouldn't give to have one of these suits I can only speak for myself though Laughing Out Loud
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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a Milanese half harness, likely produced for a wealthy condottieri type or for a fashionable noble, that displays this same diamond-pattern. It is a raised design, fully three dimensional and is not etched or studded. The portrait seems much later than this harness though, as the man dressed in a fashion of the late 16th century, while this armour is from 1525.

But the portrait does concern me with some of the qualities of the design. I can't be sure if the painter was exact, but if so then it's most likely that the armour is etched. A possibility for the distinction between the light and dark sides of each "diamond" would be a blackened finish overall, with silver inlay (more or less enamel) on the half of each. The contrast is likely not from lighting, as the artist took care to show distinction in the picture. The main reason it probably IS etched is because the entire design is shown as being very surface-oriented, without raised edges being shown.

I just wanted to jump in and play with the possibility that it resembled the Milanese suit, but it likely didn't. I'd stick with etching and probably silver enamel. I doubt that from the portrait it should be concluded that there is any raising or recessing involved in the finish of the diamond-pattern. There is not enough evidence to show this, in contrast/shadow discrepancies or in lack of uniform lines around the literal borders of the figure's armour.


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Chris Arrington





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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 10:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gregory,

That is one of my all time favorite armours. The work involved would be mind boggling.

I would love to see someone recreate this armour.
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Hector Mendoza





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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I saw a similar armor in a movie called "El Dorado" directed by Carlos Saura. The armor worn by Pedro de Ursua in the movie has some engravings. It wouldn't surprise me if some Spaniards had armor like that, they have always been famous for their orfebreria.

BTW, that is the most beautiful armor I have seen, it wasn't diamond patterned but it had some Moorish style patterns that made it very beautiful.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
There is a Milanese half harness, likely produced for a wealthy condottieri type or for a fashionable noble


There are a couple of these around. Theres at least two in museums and parts of one from Rhodes. As much of a pain as making one of these would have been to do, some one thought enough of them to do it more than once.
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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
There are a couple of these around. Theres at least two in museums and parts of one from Rhodes. As much of a pain as making one of these would have been to do, some one thought enough of them to do it more than once.


I believe it. Do you happen to have any images of any of them? This black and white page copy is the only picture I've got....

-Gregory

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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A reproduction of it was made for The Tudors, worn in one scene in the very first episode by the Duke of Buckingham. The inaccuracy of the armour on that program really galled me, especially since the Tudor period had some of the best and most interesting armour and yet the show completely omitted it, instead showing historically-incorrect and laughably fake-looking harnesses. Henry and friends participate in tilts wearing open-faced sallets half a century out of date, no neck protection, random bits and pieces of armour leaving vital areas exposed, and other suicidal getups. And then there's this armour, which is inspired by a real suit but with the addition of a helmet whose designer should have his armour-designing license revoked:


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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 6:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe it. Do you happen to have any images of any of them? This black and white page copy is the only picture I've got....


Everything i've got is in books and i'm a bit of a technoob ( the quinticential, my 14 year old daughter knows more about computers than I do ) so I don't know how to scan things at all. My appologies otherwise I would give it a shot.
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