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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Oct, 2009 7:55 pm    Post subject: Scandanavian Swords With Type R Pommels         Reply with quote

In a short 2004 thread about the inspirations for Albion's Tritonia sword, Eric McHugh wrote this:

It is interesting to note that Ewart's perception of this pommel type (R) may be the result of lack of information sharing. While I was in Sweden with Peter, we found three swords with a spherical pommel. What reinforces this idea of "lack of information sharing" was the fact that the people who managed the collection had little knowledge of the swords in question. We found this very cool little type XII with a spherical pommel. Peter and I nearly had a heart attack when we climbed on top of a ladder to look at the top shelf to find the sister sword to Tritonia. Along side it was a another sword from the 15th-16th Century (I think) that had a spherical pommel too. So that was three on one shelf. Peter can confirm this (because my memory is failing me) but I believe there was a tang and pommel (with grip) that had a spherical pommel. In any event, that is at least 4 sword within 40km of one another. This would cause one to believe that these spherical pommels were a scandinavian thing, but for whatever reason, the collections that have these sword don't share information about them. Now, don't get me wrong, they are not being territorial about it...after all they let me into the back area Happy But sometimes the academic priorities of an organization dictate that other ancient objects will be researched while others sit in storage.

So, I don't think this is as rare of a type as previously thought.


That was the beginning and end of that subject, but I'm intrigued. Is anybody out there willing and able to tell us more about what that 15th/16th c. sword with spherical pommel looks like? Blade type? Broad? Narrow? Hand-and-a-half? Grip shape? I'd really love to know more about this weapon and its cousins. I especially like the idea of a Svante-like sword with a Type R pommel and filed peen block, long tapered grip and a ribbon-like horizontally recurved cross. Would that be within historical bounds for Northern Europe ca. 1500? I can't say for sure, but it certainly wouldn't be too far out. There's a huge variety in artwork of the period, but I haven't seen anything exactly like that.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




Location: Göteborg Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean!
I dont know witch sword Eric talks about, but here is some links to pics and my old topic,
some of them have ball pommel.

from Historiska Museet
http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/include_image_exp.asp?uid=328115
http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/bild.asp?uid=328115
http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/include_image_exp.asp?uid=48103

http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/bild.asp?uid=48082 8-side'd pommel

i will see if i can fix those links in there tomorrow.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=49074

Allways something! Happy

Frid o Fröjd!
Patrik
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fantastic information! Thanks, Patrik!
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Oct, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Updating this ancient thread, and expanding it to a general discussion of the pommel type:

Many examples here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.18698.html

Weapons of Warre lists a Type R pommel/hilt in concretion among the Mary Rose artifacts. The text compares it to a river find of a similar sword in the collections of the Royal Armouries. The RA kindly supplied a photo of that weapon (can't show it here, unfortunately). It's a very short Type XVIII with a downturned cross with escussion and a slightly flattened pommel of the exact type shown on some of those Swedish swords (no foot). Of course, many basket-hilt swords of the Mary Rose period have hollow, vertically-ribbed spherical pommels, the remains of which are found among the MR artifacts.

So, not even counting all of the relatively small, decorated variants of R used on rapiers and later longswords and bastard swords through the late 16th c., this "pure" massive, plain spherical type persisted through early 16th c., at least.

The wonderful new(ish) book Medieval Swords of Southeastern Europe shows at least one medieval sword with a pommel of this type. Photo and notes below.

AVB Norman has extensive notes on the later forms of this pommel (last images below).



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Oct, 2012 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've made a couple of these in recent years, using the Alchem 1.75" pommels as the "blank". One is footed, the other is not.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Lorenzo Chinaglia




Location: Italy
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

anyone known others exemples of genuine swords with this type of pommel ? I see from various books and others resource they are usually from north europe or east europe and major parts of them are attribuited to teutonic knight ....

any information can help .... thank you
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not an actual sword, but miniatures in a French Bible Moralisee from the early 13th century show decorative lines across the pommel, which would seem indicative of a sphere rather than a wheel.

Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Han. Cod.2554, fo.37r, 1225-1249

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-moralis...2554/3829/

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Lorenzo Chinaglia




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thank you , this is a great information ....
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Lorenzo Chinaglia




Location: Italy
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: sword         Reply with quote

Hello at all the members,

I recently acquired this sword from a private collection ..... the pommel is the type discussed in this thread ..... any help abaut is ID ?

the condition are excavated but very solid .... so not bad a parts the holes on the fuller.

Thank you at all
Lorenzo


Last edited by Lorenzo Chinaglia on Wed 05 Dec, 2012 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: sword         Reply with quote

Lorenzo Chinaglia wrote:
Hello at all the members,

I recently acquired this sword from a private collection ..... the pommel is the type discussed in this thread ..... any help abaut is ID ?

the condition are excavated but very solid .... so not bad a parts the holes on the fuller.

Thank you at all
Lorenzo


We'd love to see that!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Lorenzo Chinaglia




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i m searching to add photos but they are not releved from the forum , i dont known ...

( made, photos was not correct size , sorry )



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Last edited by Lorenzo Chinaglia on Wed 05 Dec, 2012 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, that's very interesting! Thanks for posting those!
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Lorenzo Chinaglia




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

any others help on ID Sean ? positive or negative comment are welcome ..... thank you
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, it is hard to tell because blade edges are quite corroded. It might be a XII or a XVI. It might be second half of 13th or 14th century...
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Jack Savante





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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It might be tangential to the discussion but I believe there is a strong connection between the Byzantine sphere of influence and spherical and globular pommels.

http://www.orthodoxy-icons.com/uploads/posts/...rs-002.jpg

http://www.paradoxplace.com/Books/Covers%20Im...BAR450.jpg

http://www.levantia.com.au/military/pictures/paramerion.jpg

http://www.levantia.com.au/military/pictures/hilts.jpg

And appear to have been used from antiquity right through to the fall of Constantinople in one form or another.
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Lorenzo Chinaglia




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thank you yes I agree abaut influence of bizantine culture .... here the detail of the pommel . Best Lorenzo


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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are a few more images of Type R pommels ... most of these have appeared on other threads here, but I thought it could be good to keep them all together.

First, Castillon/Dordogne single-hander, a fairly short blade length of 62.5 cm or ~24.6 inches, which would make the pommel about 4.33 cm or about 1.7 inches.

I'm currently working on an approximation of this piece ... but with a more standard blade length of around 31-32 inches, a 1.75 inch round pommel ends up looking out of proportion. So, I have a 2 incher on order ... we'll see what that does for balance and handling!



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Dordogne single hander R pommel Type 11 cross 62.5 cm blade.jpg


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Last edited by Mark T on Mon 24 Feb, 2014 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb, 2014 5:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The sword displayed with the Henry XVIII tonlet armour at the RA:


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Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb, 2014 5:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This image has appeared here in a couple of threads, but the pommel is a nice example of the 'peeled mandarin' version of the Type R.


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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb, 2014 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And here's an image from Osprey's 'Medieval Scandinavian armies 2', posted by Daniel Staberg in the Strange Two hander thread.


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new_kringla_sword_112 posted by Daniel Staberg on myA 3.10.2005 from Osprey Med. Scandinavian Armies 2.jpg


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