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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Oct, 2009 12:35 pm    Post subject: Nordic Runes for Sword         Reply with quote

I am considering personalizing my Albion Valkyrja by having the blade engraved with Nordic Runes down the fuller of the sword. Of course I would also be interested in having the inscription as accurate as possible given the cost of the sword.

Is there a site for help in translating 11th century nordic runes or someone who is proficient with the translation or use of Nordic runes? Maybe the Younger Futhark short twig rune style might be appropriate for an 11th century Finnish sword.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Wed 07 Oct, 2009 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Nordic Runes for Sword         Reply with quote

Allen Foster wrote:
I am considering personalizing my Albion Valkyrja by having the blade engraved with Nordic Runes down the fuller of the sword. Of course I would also be interested in having the inscription as accurate as possible given the cost of the sword.

Is there a site for help in translating 11th century nordic runes or someone who is proficient with the translation or use of Nordic runes? Maybe the Younger Futhark short twig rune style might be appropriate for an 11th century Finnish sword.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

I can help you out with that since my BA Thesis is on the runes. Definitely go with Younger Futhark for the 11th Century, and since your aim is Finland, the Swedo-Norwegian short twig style would also be the way to go. Send me a PM with the text you want translated, preferably already in the language you want it in (English, Old Norse, Finnish, etc) but I can help a bit with that too if need be. I should have a chance to look at it in the next couple of days.
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Chris Bucklen




Location: West Virginia
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Oct, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject: runes         Reply with quote

Be careful of what runes you use! They are not just a writing tool, they have power. I'm not crazy, I'm Asatru. I have seen the runes work in wierd ways. Here is a page that might be useful.

http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/runes.php

"Let no man glory in the greatness of his mind,
but rather keep watch o'er his wits.
Cautious and silent let him enter a dwelling;
to the heedful comes seldom harm,
for none can find a more faithful friend
than the wealth of mother wit." - Hávamál
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Oct, 2009 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not trying to discourage you, but in that period, if a blade had letters on it, the letters would be inlayed, not engraved. Just a thought...
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Fri 09 Oct, 2009 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: runes         Reply with quote

Chris Bucklen wrote:
Be careful of what runes you use! They are not just a writing tool, they have power. I'm not crazy, I'm Asatru. I have seen the runes work in wierd ways. Here is a page that might be useful.

http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/runes.php

All that Allen has for sure decided to put on the sword is the sword's name, which at this point has yet to be determined. This book http://www.amazon.com/Runic-Amulets-Magic-Obj...1843832054 is pretty comprehensive (if not a little speculative) about the magical implications of actual runic inscriptions found on artifacts and in historical documents.

I wouldn't suggest any inscriptions that use runic formulas (since their symbolic or magical meaning is not fully understood, like "AAAAAAAAZZZNNNNBMUTTT:ALU" and what not). I'd stick with the good ol' "I am *sword name*, *sword maker* made me" type of deal. Laughing Out Loud
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Myles Mulkey





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PostPosted: Fri 09 Oct, 2009 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
Not trying to discourage you, but in that period, if a blade had letters on it, the letters would be inlayed, not engraved. Just a thought...

I think the sword from Leikkimaki, Finland, which is dated to the time period in question, was engraved. It can be seen near the bottom of the page on this thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13390

Is it engraved or inlaid? I thought it was engraved but upon a closer look at the blade itself I can't see any. Maybe it is inlaid Laughing Out Loud
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Allen Foster





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PostPosted: Fri 09 Oct, 2009 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
Not trying to discourage you, but in that period, if a blade had letters on it, the letters would be inlayed, not engraved. Just a thought...


Thank you for the tip. I would have been disappointed had I not done it period correct. How does inlaying work? .... and would bronze have been a good metal to use for that?

Allen

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Karl Knisley




PostPosted: Fri 09 Oct, 2009 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello
I`ve alway thought it funny, when people get Asian script, tatooed on them,and they dont speak the language.The tatooist ,could pretty much, say anything they wanted:-) If I got runes ingraved on my sword,it would probably read,
" I`am With Stupid " :-)
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Oct, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Karl Knisley wrote:
Hello
I`ve alway thought it funny, when people get Asian script, tatooed on them,and they dont speak the language.The tatooist ,could pretty much, say anything they wanted:-) If I got runes ingraved on my sword,it would probably read,
" I`am With Stupid " :-)


haha, this is very, very true, man. Very true. I've actually seen it happen before!

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Doug Lester




Location: Decatur, IL
Joined: 12 Dec 2007

Posts: 167

PostPosted: Fri 09 Oct, 2009 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When I was living in Portsmouth, Virginia the local newspaper had an article on the tattoo policies of the military and they told of one young man being barred from enlisting because the Chinese character on his arm that he was told ment manly really ment prostitute. Somehow, I don't think he was laughting when he left the recruiter's office I'd be real careful about engraving anything a a blade that I couldn't read. Another thing is having it gramatically correct. Not all languages use the same word order as in English.
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Oct, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen Foster wrote:
Thank you for the tip. I would have been disappointed had I not done it period correct. How does inlaying work? .... and would bronze have been a good metal to use for that?
Usually, it's iron. Sometimes pattern welded.

But I think it's impossible to do without heattreating the blade again.

Myles Mulkey wrote:
I think the sword from Leikkimaki, Finland, which is dated to the time period in question, was engraved. It can be seen near the bottom of the page on this thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13390

Is it engraved or inlaid? I thought it was engraved but upon a closer look at the blade itself I can't see any. Maybe it is inlaid Laughing Out Loud
The hilt is engraved, not the blade. Wink I didn't say engraving was unknown in the period, they just didn't do it on blades as far as I know. The engraving may have been inlayed with niello originally.
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Myles Mulkey





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PostPosted: Fri 09 Oct, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
Allen Foster wrote:
Thank you for the tip. I would have been disappointed had I not done it period correct. How does inlaying work? .... and would bronze have been a good metal to use for that?
Usually, it's iron. Sometimes pattern welded.

But I think it's impossible to do without heattreating the blade again.

Myles Mulkey wrote:
I think the sword from Leikkimaki, Finland, which is dated to the time period in question, was engraved. It can be seen near the bottom of the page on this thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13390

Is it engraved or inlaid? I thought it was engraved but upon a closer look at the blade itself I can't see any. Maybe it is inlaid Laughing Out Loud
The hilt is engraved, not the blade. Wink I didn't say engraving was unknown in the period, they just didn't do it on blades as far as I know. The engraving may have been inlayed with niello originally.

Oh, sorry. My mistake Big Grin
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Gavin Kisebach




Location: Lacey, Wa US
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Oct, 2009 1:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Karl Knisley wrote:
Hello
I`ve alway thought it funny, when people get Asian script, tatooed on them,and they dont speak the language.The tatooist ,could pretty much, say anything they wanted:-) If I got runes ingraved on my sword,it would probably read,
" I`am With Stupid " :-)


haha, this is very, very true, man. Very true. I've actually seen it happen before!


As a brief aside, I knew a guy in the army named Mboob who had "outlaw" tattooed on this chest in Japanese. I asked him if he spoke or read Japanese, and of course he couldn't. I asked him how he know the character didn't say "moron" or something similar, and he started to look worried as we sat around in the day room chuckling and imagining all of the horrid things the tattoo might say.

By chance there was a Japanese immigrant in our unit, so we asked him to read the tattoo. He had a very heavy accent, having just moved to the US, but he told us the tattoo said "creamy nut". I thought we would all die laughing. Mboob's face just about melted off of his head, but we eventually figured out that the Japanese fellow meant to say"criminal".

Needless to say Mboob was known as Creamy Nut thereafter, and I would never get a tattoo in a language that I don't understand, no matter how exotic and cool it looked.

Now back to the runes!

There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Chris Bucklen




Location: West Virginia
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 9:04 pm    Post subject: Inlay in steel         Reply with quote

Here is a link to a very talented smith's inlay tutorial.
http://www.seekyee.com/Bladesmithing/the%20pr...torial.htm

"Let no man glory in the greatness of his mind,
but rather keep watch o'er his wits.
Cautious and silent let him enter a dwelling;
to the heedful comes seldom harm,
for none can find a more faithful friend
than the wealth of mother wit." - Hávamál
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Inlay in steel         Reply with quote

Chris Bucklen wrote:
Here is a link to a very talented smith's inlay tutorial.
http://www.seekyee.com/Bladesmithing/the%20pr...torial.htm

Excellent source, Chris!
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Christopher Gregg




Location: Louisville, KY
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is not brass or silver more common for inscription inlaying? Just wondering...

Also, to extend the tattoo sub-thread, I was with my wife shopping for her next tattoo, and a fellow in the store was showing off his full-back tattoo of an Egyptian god, which he said was "Anubis", the Jackal deity and guide of the dead. Well, my wife, being an amateur Egyptologist, recognized the actual deity on his back, and explained to him that his newly permanent artwork was actually NOT Anubis, but the storm god Set (who killed his brother Osiris, and is often equated with the devil). Eek!

Guess the fellow should have done a bit more research, eh? Confused

Christopher Gregg

'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
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G Ezell
Industry Professional



Location: North Alabama
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a sax ,hiding off in Jeroen's ZIP file, that has an engraved runic inscription. I believe it is a French find, 675-700AD.
" I have found that it is very often the case that if you state some absolute rule of history, there will be an example, however extremely unusual, to break it."
Gabriel Lebec

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Allen Foster





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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Inlay in steel         Reply with quote

Chris Bucklen wrote:
Here is a link to a very talented smith's inlay tutorial.
http://www.seekyee.com/Bladesmithing/the%20pr...torial.htm


Thanks Chris! Does this mean I won't have to heat treat (ruin) my blade?

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Ben Potter
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Location: Altadena, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: Inlay in steel         Reply with quote

Allen Foster wrote:
Chris Bucklen wrote:
Here is a link to a very talented smith's inlay tutorial.
http://www.seekyee.com/Bladesmithing/the%20pr...torial.htm


Thanks Chris! Does this mean I won't have to heat treat (ruin) my blade?



The blade needs to be "soft" where the inlay is, it the tutorial the blade is differential quenched (hard edge, soft back). Unless I am mistaken your sword is most likely hardened all the way through, and would be rather difficult to engrave with traditional gravers. Also, some steels are more difficult to engrave even if they are soft, 1075 and 1095 are easier to engrave when soft than 8670M, same basic steel but different alloy content (8670M has more nickle). That said, it is possible to do the inlay even in all hard steel using grinding tools, it is much more difficult to get it to look authentic, but it is better than retempering a blade.

Hope that helps

Ben Potter Bladesmith

It's not that I would trade my lot
For any other man's,
Nor that I will be ashamed
Of my work torn hands-

For I have chosen the path I tread
Knowing it would be steep,
And I will take the joys thereof
And the consequences reap.
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Tim M.





Joined: 21 Jan 2007

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 2:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I may be mistaken, but I believe I read or heard somewhere that the Finnish had their own alphabet of runes (not to be confused with the Finnish music/poem form)? The alphabet supposedly was very similar the Futhark alphabet.
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