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Would you travel out of your local area for a Tournament?
NO, i like to stay local
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
Yes, if its with in 100 miles
69%
 69%  [ 25 ]
Yes, if its with in 500 miles
22%
 22%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 36

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Eric Fick




Location: California
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep, 2009 1:24 am    Post subject: Modern Tournaments: Who, What, Where, How and ...WHEN?         Reply with quote

I'll bet everyone has a different WHY!

Hello all, my name is Eric Fick and I am just comming back into the WMA community after a few years out of the loop. I work with my brother and his students at Davenriche European Martial Artes School in Santa Clara, California. I am looking to see how things have evolved outside the local scene over the last few years. For those i have not seen in a while, a big HELLO and how are things? for those I have never met, well one day we should raise a glass!

So as the title suggests, im curious about tournaments big and small, FROM AROUND THE WORLD, and i bet this is the site for it, armoured, rapier, joust, etc. I have seen all sorts of things on the internet from the U.S., U.K., Canada, Germany, Ukraine, Russia, etc. So, as I have so much to catch up on, and want to know so many things I'll sum this up with a series of questions.

What organizations, schools, or re-enactment groups are YOU with, even groups in a garage (most of us started in one) If your working on Western Martial Arts at any level I would love to know!

Who's fighting with what, where? -or- Where are you and what type of equipment do you use?

Under what type of rules? counted blows, rounds, first "kill", judged, etc etc. Heck, you tell me Happy (if you have a link to rules that would be cool.)

Whats the biggest event/tournament?

Are the events re-enactment type events or part of a WMA workshop/seminar or something else?

what type of "look" does the event take? historical Pas D'Armes or modern sporting event or something else.

How many participants or combatants are in the list?

Anyway, I think that sums up what i was trying to ask and I look forward to hearing from all of you.

Cheers,

Eric Fick
Davenriche European Martial Artes Schoole
www.swordfightingschool.com
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Eric Fick




Location: California
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep, 2009 12:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i forgot to add one option on the poll,

yes, I'm willing to travel any distance if the tournament is big/good enough (i dont think i can edit the poll, can an admin?)

thanks

Cheers,

Eric Fick
Davenriche European Martial Artes Schoole
www.swordfightingschool.com
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 381

PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep, 2009 4:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well let's see,
I think the biggest Western Martial Arts event at the moment would be the WMAW (Western Martial Arts Workshop), hosted biannually in Racine, WI by the Chicago Swordplay Guild. It draws from all over the world and has become (in my opinion) one of, if not the, best event in Western Martial Arts. You just missed the last one, which was about two weeks ago.
Best,
Hadrian

Historia magistra vitae est
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Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 12:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you're ever in the UK, the biggest event is SWASH (the Symposium on the Western Art of Swordsmanship through History) held every year at the Royal Armouries, Leeds, usually in February/March. It's a weekend of workshops and lectures and access to the museum's collection and a great social gathering for WMA enthusiasts/practitioners and members of the BFHS (British Federation for Historic Swordplay), which is the 'governing body' for WMA here in Britain.

Julian
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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




Location: Indiana
Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Reading list: 2 books

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Posts: 297

PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 2:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My ultimate fantasy is for some multi-billionaire to host a giant tournament/festival, like the Field of the Cloth of Gold, and actually have it with all of the aesthetic extravagance that a tournament of the 1500s would have had, and paid for extremely elaborate decorative armours to be made for all of the participants, and period costumes required for all in attendance. Like a Field of the Cloth of Gold re-enactment with the budget of a major motion picture.
Pastime With Good Company
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Eric Fick




Location: California
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

julian, is there a web site for SWASH for registration and what not?



Adam D. Kent-Isaac wrote:
My ultimate fantasy is for some multi-billionaire to host a giant tournament/festival, like the Field of the Cloth of Gold, and actually have it with all of the aesthetic extravagance that a tournament of the 1500s would have had, and paid for extremely elaborate decorative armours to be made for all of the participants, and period costumes required for all in attendance. Like a Field of the Cloth of Gold re-enactment with the budget of a major motion picture.


Well If i come across a billionaire willing to throw down some major money, I will let you know. I would bet with an even of that type the billionaire investor/ patron would be able to sell media rights to BBC, History Channel, ESPN or some Media station to cover such an event.

Speaking of Media and what not, what about an event in a modern sports complex with WMA combatants? So a modern sporting event with ticket sales and media (heck maybe Pay Per View) and all that type of jazz but with the bouts, equipment, and participants being governed by historical references and customs. I think that would throw the modern viewing audience on their heads! and i think i would only need a millionaire for that one

How many people would be interested in such an event, or is the current model of tournament - symposium combo preferred?

Cheers,

Eric Fick
Davenriche European Martial Artes Schoole
www.swordfightingschool.com
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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Posts: 416

PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would travel any distance to attend a good tournament. Especially if I feel I have a good chance of winning or doing well.

Actually, once I clear up a bit of backlog at work, I'll start travelling around again. It's making me work harder... I'm really looking forward to next year and the start of my tourney journey.

Also, I've read posts all over the place that say how similar Shuang Shou Jian (Chinese 2-handed sword) is to Western Longsword, so that opens up so many more awesome options!

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Eric Fick




Location: California
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Mon 28 Sep, 2009 2:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OH crap don't open up the Deadliest Warrior topic yet. First lets stick within our on martial arts systems before introducing MWA (mixed weapon arts)

My brother and I have been kicking around the idea of hosting a tournament only setup as a compliment to the already existing symposiums we have around the world. Both he and I are interested in creating more interest in the arts so many of us dedicate our lives too (hell, i think many in our community need a little bit more credit in the publics eye) for example, when talking to people at work about what i do as a hobby, most dismiss it at first until i explain just a bit of the whole picture and then it changes to HOLY "bleep", YOUR CRAZY...You really do that "bleep".

"Crazy" may not be what most here are looking for as a public image and by no means what I would want our art to be considered, however, to many others in the martial arts community and the public at large is that what we do is a joke or for role playing geeks (no offence to anyone please, i game myself), or my favorite quote "Oh ya, you guys are the ones that learn there "bleep" from comic books" and I think he meant it. However, when those same people see a fully armoured fight, or unarmoured longsword they quickly change and many even muster up the courage to give it a go. So, other than hollywood and historical re-enactments such as "ren" faires what vehicle do we have to shape public opinion?

So what I would envision is a "modern" martial arts event in a professional sporting arena with the modern "fans" expectations taken into consideration with historical western martial arts at it core. Some how, we would need to get it past just a local "buzz" and get it moving into a pay per view or webcast event so the world could see what we are about. leak stuff onto the web to create the "viral" effect, i don't know..... but what I do know, is that positive exposure would result in positive growth in our community, from schools and book sales to armourers and smiths seeing an increase in business, simple supply and demand

So, thoughts, complaints, concerns, expectations of your own for such an event?

Cheers,

Eric Fick
Davenriche European Martial Artes Schoole
www.swordfightingschool.com
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Mon 28 Sep, 2009 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find the lack of open tournaments within the WMA disappointing. I would travel 300 miles at the drop of a hat. I do that regularly in the SCA. I would travel 500 miles once or twice a year.

I think tournaments should take the form of both matched weapons and at least one mixed weapons match, limited grappling and full on grappling matches, armored and unarmored targeting.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Eric Fick




Location: California
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue 29 Sep, 2009 12:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

with regard to existing open WMA tournaments it is my understanding that the WMAW events are open to patrons of the symposium.

if the interest is large enough in our community and the tournament is an open inventational meaning that invites to WMA groups such as SCA, AEMMA, ARMA, BHFA, etc are extended i think it could work. like in MMA events a fighter would need to apply to enter participate in things like a weigh-in etc etc. Personally, i would not want a some type of exclusive tournament with captured fighters (like UFC) and prevents them from participation in other tournaments. to the contrary i would hope that one huge international tournament would bolster participation in other events events like WMAW and SCA, etc.etc

Cheers,

Eric Fick
Davenriche European Martial Artes Schoole
www.swordfightingschool.com
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Eric Fick




Location: California
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue 29 Sep, 2009 1:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

wow its been a long day at work, and after i read that post i think i should be slapped for my grammar

I hope the point gets across even through the horrible english......

Cheers,

Eric Fick
Davenriche European Martial Artes Schoole
www.swordfightingschool.com
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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Posts: 604

PostPosted: Tue 29 Sep, 2009 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric,

For the past two years AEMMA has hosted an invitational armoured tournament at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. Aside from our colleagues at the Ottawa Medieval Sword Guild, very few others have taken an interest in participating despite numerous public and private invitations. The armour standards are quite high because we do not want anyone to die! SCAdians generally do not have sufficient kit to survive rebated steel combat, regardless of their individual skills. In fact very, very few of them are interested in HEMA studies except as they may apply to their particular game.

If you or your brother would like to join us this year, by all means, we'd love to have you visit. The next one is shaping up to be in late February or early March 2010. Here's a bit about last year's festivities. http://armizare.blogspot.com/2009/03/rom-tournament.html I guarantee you as much beer as you want should you join us. Cool
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Eric Fick




Location: California
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue 29 Sep, 2009 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel,

thank you very much for the invite, I'll talk to my brother. I think i speak for us both when I say we would be honored.

I am only just now getting my own armour kit together, and the insight and assistance from AEMMA and SCA groups have been more than helpful and priceless.

I think my brother may be working on an event in may or june in San Jose, CA but at this time i don't have all the details. I do know it would be part of a much larger multi discipline tournament in the heart of down town San Jose

Cheers,

Eric Fick
Davenriche European Martial Artes Schoole
www.swordfightingschool.com
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Nathan Shallcross




Location: Chester
Joined: 18 May 2009

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 29 Sep, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Colin Richards from Arts of Mars is holding the 2nd world championships in Germany in 2010

http://www.artsofmars.com/index.php/championships.html[url]

Dave Rawlings has been kicking around comp rules etc and ideas here

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13341

and

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=97238[/url]
[/url]
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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Posts: 416

PostPosted: Tue 29 Sep, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That Art of Mars onoe looks cool. THey're a bit vague on that website (at least in the English Version) as to the WHEN, so does everyone think think it'll be during August next year? I'd like to pencil it in...
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Axel Pettersson




Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Joined: 04 Apr 2006

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dijon has a good tournament, and Fight Camp in England,

my club (Gothenburg Historical Fencing School, 80+ members, classes 9 times a week) hosts Swordfish, whose profile is the modern one, especially the tournaments.

visit http://www.ghfs.se/swordfish

videos can be found at: http://www.youtube.com/user/GothenburgHFS

we are releasing a promo video soon.
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Eric Fick




Location: California
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 10:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Axel,

thank you very much for your response, Gothenburg Historical Fencing School looks great and has the energy I love to see in a group doing martial arts! I think i would have a blast working out with you guys! Oh and who sells the plastic swords? i really would like to get a pair to see how they preform vs a waister or rebated steel.

So, watching your videos brings up another question with regards to equipment being used in "unarmoured" systems like longsword. Armoured tournaments and rapier (and like weapon) tournaments are the opposite sides of our WMA spectrum and I know all types of groups have all types of safety standards with regard to equipment and the level of commitment or power level used in combat. So, with regards to an open tournament with invites to everyone in the community what equipment standards would people be expecting.

what do you use in the following fields to be safe, yet allow you to use the UNARMOURED techniques?

Sword: some prefer the standard rebated steel (myself included) but some use plastic, padded, rattan, waisters, etc etc.

Head protection: Standard three weapon mask, or modified three weapon mask (who makes, or how do you modify) steel helm like a bascinet, or something else

body protection: standard fencing jacket, padded gambison, plastron, brigandine, etc

Arm and leg: hard plastic elbow/knee pads, padded elbow/knee pads, nothing more than the padded gambison or fencing jacket, forearm protection, leg protection

hands: this i have seen several answers from hockey gloves and steel gauntlets to simply leather fencing gloves and everything else under the sun


I guess you could classify the types of combat by weight classes based on equipment. Armoured = heavy weight, rapier/smallsword = light weight, and "unarmoured" = a kind of middle weight

I know that people around the world are always trying to make the learning experience more authentic without loss of life so i know that what some consider safe others consider reckless but at the end of the day we all study the same arts

Cheers,

Eric Fick
Davenriche European Martial Artes Schoole
www.swordfightingschool.com
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Fick wrote:


what do you use in the following fields to be safe, yet allow you to use the UNARMOURED techniques?


Weapons - I think that steel blunts should become the standard. A minimum thickness and flex should be established. Rubber tips (with a washer on the inside) should be required. All weapons to be inspected.

Armor- I'm all for keeping it simple. Full head coverage. Fencing mask with a backplate should be fine if that is all some one wants to wear. But they should not be surprised if they see some stars. Knees, elbows, throat (that cover the back of the neck well too), groin, fingers. It can be optional if people choose to wear gantlets or basket hilt swords. I have seen two-handed swords too with basket designs. Broken fingers are way to common in the activity. People need to be given as must allowed to use whatever hand protection they want regardless of how historical or unhistorical it is. The rest of the body is not critical. It may hurt to get hit in the ribs or upper arm but the risk of serious injury is minimal. Personally, I would wear greaves, cuisses, vambraces and a thick belt around my gut too.

Divisions- I think the divisions should break down into armored and unarmored. The unarmored being easy to conceive... the armor should be armor as worn. Keep in mind that a fencing mask does not count as armor at all since it has almost no weight and no visibility restrictions. If someone wants to build a nasal helm over that, then it will count as a nasal helm.

Grappling- this is the only thing I have a problem putting into proper perspective. To what extent should grappling be allowed, since most people in WMA do have some exposure to grappling, it does favor the bigger/stronger person.

btw, the poll was a great idea. I expected a far higher percentage of people willing to travel more then 100 miles.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Eric Fick




Location: California
Joined: 16 Sep 2009

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Fri 02 Oct, 2009 12:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree that people should be allowed to use whatever protective equipment (within reason) to protect themselves, however, I am sure that for insurance reasons an event organizer must set at least a basic standard.

as for simply setting an armoured or unarmoured style without taking into consideration the later fencing systems with rapier, smallsword, backsword, saber, etc i think would be a mistake, i think it has its own class of fighting vs. the unarmed systems like I.33 or German/italian longsword, so i would classify them in a different category.

I do like the rubber tips on rapiers due to the type of fighting "most" do with the rapier. however, I don't know if that will transition over to a longsword. the blunted/rebated blades have served very well in my opinion, however, i don't know that people would fight in a tournament with them. Personally, I would love to see people using stab-resistant vest like I use at work, while it would not stop the blunt trauma it would help to prevent any thrusts to the body getting to major organs (and they are light)

Cheers,

Eric Fick
Davenriche European Martial Artes Schoole
www.swordfightingschool.com
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Fri 02 Oct, 2009 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Fick wrote:

I do like the rubber tips on rapiers due to the type of fighting "most" do with the rapier. however, I don't know if that will transition over to a longsword. the blunted/rebated blades have served very well in my opinion, however, i don't know that people would fight in a tournament with them. Personally, I would love to see people using stab-resistant vest like I use at work, while it would not stop the blunt trauma it would help to prevent any thrusts to the body getting to major organs (and they are light)


In a competitive environment where goal is to win, I can easily see ribs getting broken through gambsons and fencing jackets if their is no rubber tips on swords. From what I hear the groups that do live steel fighting in Russia and other places have banned the use of thrusts all together. The don't use flexiblades or rubber tips. I think the combination of the two can allow for safe thrusting.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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