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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




Location: Indiana
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Sep, 2009 11:48 am    Post subject: Tournament helm and shield in funeral procession - in 1647?         Reply with quote

On Wikipedia you can see the painting of the elaborate funeral procession of Prince Frederik Hendrik of Orange, the great Dutch general and son of William the Silent. I can't post the picture here because the size of it is absolutely gigantic - 29,672 400 pixels. (It's amazing to me that someone actually painted this procession with such determination.) In any case, here is the image. If you're using Firefox it will probably display in zoomed-out form. If so, zoom in to the point right after the fifth cluster of black-clothed men. If not, just scroll to the right until you see a bunch of men with red coats and trumpets. Right after that, there are two men carrying pennants, and then to the right of them, are men with up a tilt-helm, a shield and a horse. Above them it is labeled: Tournoy Helm, Tournoy Schilt, and Tournoy Peerd. (Tourney Helm, Tourney Shield, Tourney Horse.)

Now, I have a few questions about this:

First of all, was it common for funeral processions as late as the mid-17th century to include the display of armour?

Secondly, were these helmet, shield and horse simply ceremonial, or were they actually used in actual tournaments that Frederik Hendrik participated in? Does anyone have any additional information about Dutch tournaments? Did the House of Orange hold their own tilts in the Dutch provinces or were they participants in German tournaments (or both)?

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Joel Minturn





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PostPosted: Mon 14 Sep, 2009 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is a neat picture, lots of interesting little details.

One more question to ask the experts. At several different places there are guys dragging their pole arms. Is that a sign of mourning or something else.

But back on the jousting topic. It looks to me as if all the flags are being flown from lances. Not sure if that means anything or they just like the look of them instead of plain poles.
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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




Location: Indiana
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Oct, 2009 11:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One bump because I'm curious if anyone knows more about this. Thanks.
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David Evans




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 9:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joel Minturn wrote:
That is a neat picture, lots of interesting little details.

One more question to ask the experts. At several different places there are guys dragging their pole arms. Is that a sign of mourning or something else.

But back on the jousting topic. It looks to me as if all the flags are being flown from lances. Not sure if that means anything or they just like the look of them instead of plain poles.




The weapons reversed is a common expression of mourning. See the Lant Roll for the same display in 1585 , such as Plate 25 http://wiki.umd.edu/psidney/index.php?title=Plate_25

See Plate 15 for the display of Sir Philip's Tourney http://wiki.umd.edu/psidney/index.php?title=Plate_15

The Lant Roll just shows staffs to fly the Sidney coat of arms, although plate 13 reports that the Page is trailing a broken lance.

I suspect it's a clear depiction of Status. Lance = Knight
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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 12:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, the man who carried Philip Sidney's pennant of arms at his funeral was James Scudamore (also spelled Skidmore) who can be seen in this image:



He was only 18 years old at the time of Sidney's death. He later went on to be a very prominent courtier at Elizabeth's court, and he had two suits of Greenwich armour which survive to this day and are both at the Metropolitan Museum in New York.




The suits of armour were found rusting in a chest in the attic of an abandoned tower at the Holme Lacy estate in 1911. They were in horrible condition, as they had been stored right under a leaking roof. It is a testament to the Metropolitan armourer's skills that they were able to restore these suits so well.

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