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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Would-be Robber Ends Up in Sword Fight Reply to topic
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Jason M. Rogers




Location: Lorton Virginia
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 5:23 am    Post subject: Would-be Robber Ends Up in Sword Fight         Reply with quote

Just read this from a news links webpage I read every day called keepandbeararms.com

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/...in_swo.php

"A robbery gone wrong ended when the victim upped the ante on the would-be robber by pulling a sword."

RTHT
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Justin King
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Location: flagstaff,arizona
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 6:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In my home state even.What really worries me isn't the incident or the article but some of the comments.
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Jason M. Rogers




Location: Lorton Virginia
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am sure that the people calling for sword and bat to be outlawed in the comments area are just satirising the gun control crowd. After all the victims actions for self defence where moral and legal without regard to the tool he chose.
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason M. Rogers wrote:
I am sure that the people calling for sword and bat to be outlawed in the comments area are just satirising the gun control crowd. After all the victims actions for self defence where moral and legal without regard to the tool he chose.
I can see how one could argue that the response was not really proportionnate, though... At least over here I figure using repetetively a sword after being struck once by a bat would be called excessive use of force.

Hence the value of learning how to hit with the flat Wink

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Vincent
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 8:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Jason M. Rogers wrote:
I am sure that the people calling for sword and bat to be outlawed in the comments area are just satirising the gun control crowd. After all the victims actions for self defence where moral and legal without regard to the tool he chose.
I can see how one could argue that the response was not really proportionnate, though... At least over here I figure using repetetively a sword after being struck once by a bat would be called excessive use of force.

Hence the value of learning how to hit with the flat Wink


Erm, I would disagree - I have seen the outcome of someone getting hit in head by a baseball bat and that was not really pretty - person had to spend a LOT of time in recovery and was lucky to have survived. With flat of the blade there is no guarantee you will put the oponent out of the fight quickly and efficiently, hence using the blade the "normal" way might have been called for.
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Jason M. Rogers




Location: Lorton Virginia
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Posts: 30

PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Artis Aboltins wrote:
Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Jason M. Rogers wrote:
I am sure that the people calling for sword and bat to be outlawed in the comments area are just satirising the gun control crowd. After all the victims actions for self defence where moral and legal without regard to the tool he chose.
I can see how one could argue that the response was not really proportionnate, though... At least over here I figure using repetetively a sword after being struck once by a bat would be called excessive use of force.

Hence the value of learning how to hit with the flat Wink


Erm, I would disagree - I have seen the outcome of someone getting hit in head by a baseball bat and that was not really pretty - person had to spend a LOT of time in recovery and was lucky to have survived. With flat of the blade there is no guarantee you will put the oponent out of the fight quickly and efficiently, hence using the blade the "normal" way might have been called for.


What country are you guys from. In most U.S. states the force does not have to be "proportionate". When one is faced with death or grave bodily harm one may use deadly force, and continue to apply same until ones assailant is incapacitated or flees especialy in ones own home.
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 9:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason M. Rogers wrote:
Artis Aboltins wrote:
Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Jason M. Rogers wrote:
I am sure that the people calling for sword and bat to be outlawed in the comments area are just satirising the gun control crowd. After all the victims actions for self defence where moral and legal without regard to the tool he chose.
I can see how one could argue that the response was not really proportionnate, though... At least over here I figure using repetetively a sword after being struck once by a bat would be called excessive use of force.

Hence the value of learning how to hit with the flat Wink


Erm, I would disagree - I have seen the outcome of someone getting hit in head by a baseball bat and that was not really pretty - person had to spend a LOT of time in recovery and was lucky to have survived. With flat of the blade there is no guarantee you will put the oponent out of the fight quickly and efficiently, hence using the blade the "normal" way might have been called for.


What country are you guys from. In most U.S. states the force does not have to be "proportionate". When one is faced with death or grave bodily harm one may use deadly force, and continue to apply same until ones assailant is incapacitated or flees especialy in ones own home.


Exactly as it should be, IMO. If someone values my belongings more than his own personal well-beeing that is his problem, not mine.
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm no lawyer and we certainly don't know enough about the incident to judge if the reaction was appropriate...
However proportionnality is definitely in French law and I believe in a number of other countries it exists as well. Even if the baseball bat is considered lethal force (which I doubt, at least not at the same level as an edged sword) it does not justify everything. There is no notion of putting the opponent out of the fight as quickly as possible. You just respond with the force needed to defend yourself, not the maximum you can apply.

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Vincent
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 10:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The article does state that only the "batter" is being charged and the article implies that nothing is being done to the "swordsman". Assuming this information is correct, it would appear that Phoenix law enforcement either does consider the slicing and dicing a proportional response, or proportional response does not apply in local regulations.

Obviously the handling of a situation like this will not be constant everywhere.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Joel Minturn





Joined: 10 Dec 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
I'm no lawyer and we certainly don't know enough about the incident to judge if the reaction was appropriate...
However proportionnality is definitely in French law and I believe in a number of other countries it exists as well. Even if the baseball bat is considered lethal force (which I doubt, at least not at the same level as an edged sword) it does not justify everything. There is no notion of putting the opponent out of the fight as quickly as possible. You just respond with the force needed to defend yourself, not the maximum you can apply.


My understanding of Arizona law (not a lawyer but did take a self-defense class that was all about the law) ANY weapon is considered lethal force so responding with a sword or even with a gun would be considered appropriate. And the response is only supposed to go as long as the guy is a threat.

But I am glad that the bad guy was arrested and the victim was not harassed by the police. Though some of the those comments are rather inane. I do think some of them are bad attempts at humor but I fear not all of them are.
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Kevin S





Joined: 09 Jan 2009

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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm from Arizona, and the way our law handles stuff like this is that in theory you should only respond when attacked with a proportional amount of force, unless you are afraid for your life or the lives of loved ones, in which case you can go ahead and use as much force as you think you need. If someone is in your home attacking you with a weapon of any kind the police really aren't going to complain if you kill them, though you might get sued by their family.
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Gavin Kisebach




Location: Lacey, Wa US
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would only comment on the proportionality of force (I'm not going to get into the legality here) but I would say that a bat is easily a deadly weapon, thus any amount of force in response is proportional.

I would think that anyone who has ever seen the victim of a bludgeoning homicide would agree. Bats can be incredibly nasty. The fact that the clubbist got out alive (and the fact that they were returning from a check cashing store) at all makes me suspect that the sword involved was probably a wall hanger.

There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Jason M. Rogers




Location: Lorton Virginia
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 4:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
The fact that the clubbist got out alive (and the fact that they were returning from a check cashing store) at all makes me suspect that the sword involved was probably a wall hanger.


I guess I realy did not look at that angle but I think you are absolutly on to something here. What, like three or four strokes with the blade? The asailant is still alive so I can not belive the edge was sharp.
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Matthew Fedele




Location: Auburn, NY USA
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 4:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They report it like having swords laying around the house is weird for some reason....
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Aleksei Sosnovski





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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Either the sword was a wall hanger or the "victim" was not skilled in using a swords or he spared the "robber". Well, the sword might also have been a training blunt. A blunt sword can incapacitate an aggressor with a single blow. Proven by my personal experience. Oh, and cause severe bleeding too. I was once hit by a stone in my forehead and despite the wound was small half of my face was covered with blood in mere seconds.

About hitting with a flat of a blade. Almost useless. Well, unless you have a very narrow and stiff blade (a.k.a. prybar). More or less wide blade would act like a parachute slowing down the blow and on impact the blade would bend and damper the (already pretty weak) blow. Painful, but not enough to stop a determined aggressor unless one hits some vital spot which is very unlikely. Though probably this aggressor was not determined to continue his assault after he saw a sword. Too bad for him he was too slow to understand that it was the right time to flee. Because as soon as the aggressor flees the victim is no longer in danger and thus has no right to inflict any damage to the aggressor (at least in my country, what does the law say in where the incident took place?).

P.S. I think that it is better to be sued than to be dead. I guess all special forces are being taught "shoot'em until they fall". Same here: hit'em until they fall or flee. A baseball bat can kill, and in skilled hands baseball bat is a formidable opponent to a wall hanger. A sword has a cutting edge, but it is very difficult to deflect or stop a baseball bat with a sword. So I think that the "victim" had right to use as much force to defend himself as he wanted. Too bad he did not have a gun. There are already a lot of talks about banning guns, so one incident would not change anything, but people talking about banning swords may be troublesome. Oh, and if he had a gun he might have been able to stop the aggressor without firing a single round. And the aggressor would most likely be very glad to sit there and wait for the police to arrive.
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Jason M. Rogers




Location: Lorton Virginia
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Sep, 2009 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Fedele wrote:
They report it like having swords laying around the house is weird for some reason....


LOL Happy I guess we are all a bunch of weirdos then!
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Sep, 2009 6:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aleksei Sosnovski wrote:
About hitting with a flat of a blade. Almost useless. Well, unless you have a very narrow and stiff blade (a.k.a. prybar). More or less wide blade would act like a parachute slowing down the blow and on impact the blade would bend and damper the (already pretty weak) blow. Painful, but not enough to stop a determined aggressor unless one hits some vital spot which is very unlikely.

I don't know, Matt Galas gave a lecture at the last Dijon event about that and it seems that there are quite a few references to people hitting with the flat when they wanted to dispatch but not kill or hurt severly. I think he even mentioned a medieval self-defense situation where the guy hit several time with the flat before finally switching to the edge as the opponent did not stop (could be wrong on this one)...

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Jason M. Rogers




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Sep, 2009 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Aleksei Sosnovski wrote:
About hitting with a flat of a blade. Almost useless. Well, unless you have a very narrow and stiff blade (a.k.a. prybar). More or less wide blade would act like a parachute slowing down the blow and on impact the blade would bend and damper the (already pretty weak) blow. Painful, but not enough to stop a determined aggressor unless one hits some vital spot which is very unlikely.

I don't know, Matt Galas gave a lecture at the last Dijon event about that and it seems that there are quite a few references to people hitting with the flat when they wanted to dispatch but not kill or hurt severly. I think he even mentioned a medieval self-defense situation where the guy hit several time with the flat before finally switching to the edge as the opponent did not stop (could be wrong on this one)...


Could this hit with the flat serve more as a warning, "See I don't want this but that could have been a nasty cut and I am good enough to land a blow" sort of behavior.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Sep, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Could this hit with the flat serve more as a warning, "See I don't want this but that could have been a nasty cut and I am good enough to land a blow" sort of behavior.


Theres no flat on a baseball bat and the article indicated that the bat weilder swung with intent. You smack me with a bat and I will do my damndest to put you down as quickly and as permanently as possible to prevent you from hitting me again. To expect the average person to start doing use of force assesments in the event of sudden attack with a deadly weapon is at best unreasonable. I have been assaulted in a robbery situation and worrying about how much force was appropriate to use, was not and should not be part of the equation, survial instinct does not work that way.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Sep, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aleksei Sosnovski wrote:
Either the sword was a wall hanger or the "victim" was not skilled in using a swords or he spared the "robber".


I wouldn't be so sure. We have countless historical and modern examples of people taking multiple sword cuts without incapacitation.
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