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F. Carl Holz




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 3:28 am    Post subject: looking for info on greathelms w/ visors         Reply with quote

i've seen people go both ways on this, yes there were great helms with visors, no there weren't. I've looked around some myself and some of the period art really looks like there may have been visors on some great helms, but then i've never heard of a surviving example of one either.

so has anyone found any evidence one way or the other? if there are any surviving examples does anyone have any pictures? If they existed i'd like to get some more info on them; i think they ones that (appear to) have visors look pretty sweat and the kit i'm putting together fits with about where i think they do.

anyways, thanks for the help!

Carl
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Our Great Helm Spotlight covers some of this. I know of no surviving examples. There is period art, though, that seems to point them out. They are fairly short-lived since bascinets with visors must have proved a better solution (and indeed long outlived the visored great helm).
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have always been intriqued by an image of Bertran de Born (died ~1215), from MS of troubadour songs, Bibliothèque Nationale Française, early 13th century.
I am not sure if it would be a great helm with visor removed, one with a grill, or what.



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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
I have always been intriqued by an image of Bertran de Born (died ~1215), from MS of troubadour songs, Bibliothèque Nationale Française, early 13th century.
I am not sure if it would be a great helm with visor removed, one with a grill, or what.


Jared,
Can you get any closer on his face? It's hard to tell what they may be at that picture size.

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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That was the only image copy I had. It was not a large image, nor particularly high resolution in the original on line manuscript. There are a couple similar ones (opposite side of horse) easily found on line that are of a different view, that look like a helm with open face.

Edit.. I found a book cover that appears to be the same image enlarged. Here it looks like an open faced helm. (Or whatever we might call something similar to a great helm, detached visor?.)



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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
That was the only image copy I had. It was not a large image, nor particularly high resolution in the original on line manuscript. There are a couple similar ones (opposite side of horse) easily found on line that are of a different view, that look like a helm with open face.

Edit.. I found a book cover that appears to be the same image enlarged. Here it looks like an open faced helm. (Or whatever we might call something similar to a great helm, detached visor?.)


Thanks! 1215 is early for anything that fully encompasses the sides and back of the head in any way, so I don't know if that depicts a helm or something else. The helms we see of that time were basically masked pot helms, perhaps beginning to creep down in the back to fully enclose the head, but not fully enclosing it like we see in that image. If the top of his head wasn't so square, I'd say it was a hood or a coif.

Any idea when that was painted?

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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:

Any idea when that was painted?


It was supposed to be early 13th century. There was a late 12th century treatise discussing removable visor or helm masks (Edit, this was Niger, Henry Laon discussed them in 13th century), although, these were called "'troublesome" (hot and suffocating the wearer) in it. Some other anecdotes (William Marhsal getting helms battered so badly that they were "stuck" on his head, twice in his lifetime) that also seem to point to early forms of rather full head coverage. I have yet to see a really convincing direct example (art or artifact) that is fully accepted as close to 1200 A.D. though. The coin with the seal of Thomas de St. Walery really does seem to depict a great helm of some form, or at least one with a face covering. As the mint of the coin is fairly specific, we only need debate what it actually depicted. (Shown top left.)
http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/decoration/seal3.htm

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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some other sketches based upon 13th century seals (A treatise on heraldry, British and foreign, John Woodward) has at least one sketch that really does look like a visor mask was strapped on.


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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
Some other sketches based upon 13th century seals (A treatise on heraldry, British and foreign, John Woodward) has at least one sketch that really does look like a visor mask was strapped on.


But none of those helms encase the head to the degree that the Bertran de Born image shows. Happy

The strapped-on mask is interesting as it's not something discussed often (or ever in most cases) by armour writers.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Sep, 2009 3:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
If the top of his head wasn't so square, I'd say it was a hood or a coif.

Any idea when that was painted?


Well I think some forms of cervelière where sort of flat topped or low conical and under a coif would look very squarish ?

Albion still has one of these in it's Moat Sales page:
http://www.albion-swords.com/moat.htm Scroll down a bit. Wink

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Sep, 2009 7:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Well I think some forms of cervelière where sort of flat topped or low conical and under a coif would look very squarish ?



Sure, but those don't seem to have been popular when the subject of the painting was alive. So we're still left wondering if it was painted later or if not, what it's supposed to depict since it's unusual. Happy

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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Sep, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If it is a helm, I would describe it as having a "window" or opening. in writing, a "fenestral" (window?), "candelabra" (crown like structure?), and "maistre" (bowl) were used to describe a helm in a section of the old French Crusade Cycle about Geoffrey de Bouillon and his ancestors. In the 2nd volume (Swan Knight), there is a chanson (poetic song) with mention of a helm and again "fenestral'. French translation attached for others more qualified to translate. (Look around lines 880.)


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Yuri Serebemnick





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PostPosted: Wed 09 Sep, 2009 2:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know if you guys remember in the Monty Python movie/film we have Sir Bedevere helmet.
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J.W. Salyards





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PostPosted: Wed 09 Sep, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Luttrell Psalter has an image of a sugarloafish greathelm that is visored:


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/mady...salter.jpg


Also, similar construction, a statue (forgetting the name):

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/mady...edloaf.jpg



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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Wed 09 Sep, 2009 2:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That sugarloaf helmets had visors is a known fact - what we are trying to determine here is if "proper" greathelms did as well, as evidence seems to be inconclusive so far.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Sep, 2009 8:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Artis Aboltins wrote:
That sugarloaf helmets had visors is a known fact - what we are trying to determine here is if "proper" greathelms did as well, as evidence seems to be inconclusive so far.


Sugarloaf helms are a type of great helm according to everything I've read.

Here's a helm that is not of typical sugar loaf form that has what appears to be a moveable visor. It's also alittle later than your typical sugarloaf.


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Bob K.




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PostPosted: Sat 12 Sep, 2009 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yuri Serebemnick wrote:
I don't know if you guys remember in the Monty Python movie/film we have Sir Bedevere helmet.


Yes, quite true, but Sir Bedevere could not be considered a real knight as he had no horse, only coconuts that were clacked together. Wink
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F. Carl Holz




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PostPosted: Mon 21 Sep, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

so is anyone making these? that is, making functional ones; I'm thinking upto SCA standerds, if not more.
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