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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
Joined: 02 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue 25 Aug, 2009 11:00 pm    Post subject: Unknown Swiss banner, 1470-1490         Reply with quote

Dear Gentlemen,

I need your knowledge, experience and opinion, otherwise your help. Iíve attached two pictures of XV th century medieval stained-glass windows. Look at the pictures please. There are two Swiss men at arms in those pictures. First men at arms has the red banner of Glarus, second one has the very similar banner but with blue field.

My question is whose the blue banner is? Whom it belonged to? Thank you in advance for your cooperation and prompt answers. Unfortunately, even my Swiss friends failed to produce any information on that subject.

Sincerely yours,
Oleg



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Glarus [ Download ]

 Attachment: 107.26 KB
Unknown [ Download ]
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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
Joined: 02 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri 04 Sep, 2009 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excuse me Gents,
But this message is just to refresh my previous info request. Does anybody have any idea?

Sincerely,
Oleg
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F. Carl Holz




Location: someplace out on the water (and probably not able to access my PM)
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
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Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 115

PostPosted: Fri 04 Sep, 2009 8:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

sorry, i got nothing.
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Fri 04 Sep, 2009 9:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think you best bet is to google "Saints Banners". I found a few but could not get one that matched the image. Armies often carried the Banners of Saints before them. The English sometimes carried Saint George. The first image you posted appears to be a canonized bishop (St. Fridolin). The second one of a layman, perhaps a monk or martyr. I can not see clearly the hands of the Saints in the banner. What they are holding in their hands often gives clues to who they are. If we can figure out who the Saints are, we might be able to figure out whose banner it is.

The other possibility is that that is not a soldier on campaign but a Pilgram on a pilgrimage to a holy place. You just have to do a lot of googling of "banners of saints" and try to get a match. It is not a common banner. What makes you think it is Swiss? I did search "Swiss Saint banners" and came up with no matches on the first few pages. A more extensive search by you may turn up something. You can filter google to return images only. It is going to take some work to get a match.

It might also help if we knew the source of the image you posted? Is it in a church somewhere? A castle? Which one? You know it is Swiss and dates between 1470 and 1490. How did you get this information?

Sorry, if my approach seems very basic, but since you have not gotten a satisfactory response yet, I think we need to take a step back and a wider prospective.

Edit: I see the Canton of Zurich banner is blue an white. That might be a good lead.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ch-zh.html#var

Look through this site. They have 79,000 images for flags on on 42,000 pages.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/index.html

Here is a rough image of the Glarus banner. You will notice from this one that you are looking for a rough match.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ch-gl.html#kf

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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Stephane Rabier




Location: Brittany
Joined: 13 Nov 2006

Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sat 05 Sep, 2009 3:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
could it be the banneer of St Colomban (holding a dove)? Or St Gall holding a loaf of bread, they both lived in the area.
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Sat 05 Sep, 2009 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There may be some clues here. It references territories withing the Canton of Gallen which is represented by the first image you posted.

http://www.ngw.nl/int/zwi/kanton/st-galle.htm

Here is a broader list to go through (numerous pages):
http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client...0&sa=N

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Sat 05 Sep, 2009 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm getting warmer

http://www.ngw.nl/themes/saints.htm

I see a possible match.

St. Gal holding the bread that Stephane mentioned.
http://www.ngw.nl/int/slo/s/slavosov.htm

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Stephane Rabier




Location: Brittany
Joined: 13 Nov 2006

Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep, 2009 12:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
well done Vassilis. In fact the problem as you wrote above is that we can't clearly see what the saint holds in his hand.
Depending on how I look, I see either St Gall's bread or St Colomban's white dove. Maybe what I take for the dove head is just a part of the sleeve, We'd definitely need a better resolution picture or more info on where that glass painting is from to be 100% sure.



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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep, 2009 1:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I could not find a charge with a dove that fit the color patter we are looking for so I am guessing it is St. Gal with the bread. There is the possibility that the list I posted is not complete. It would be nice if we could get confirmation if we are are looking for a Dove or bread.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
Joined: 02 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep, 2009 11:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Gentlemen,
First of all, take my apologies for not answering sooner, please. Let me answer some questions and provide more detailed information on the subject. I attached bigger picture of that banner here. That Saint holds a book in his left palm, presumably the Holly Bible, not the loaf of bread. The internet sources were the first ones that I checked three years ago. Unfortunately I still have no any positive results.

Well, there are five stained glass windows exist. All five stained glass windows show five men at arms bearing five banners on their lances respectively. The banners belong to Swiss cities and cantons such as Zurich, Lucerne, Uri, Glarus and fifth one with the unknown Saint Bishop on the blue field belonged to unidentified city, canton, guild, bishop or noble family.

Why do I know they are Swiss? I identify them as Swiss due to their banners. Also have a look at the hilts of their daggers or short swords, those hilts are typical Swiss. All stained glass windows are in Russia now. Some specialists think they we produced in Germany and date them on the beginning of XVI century. I believe they are mistaken. We should date these stained glass windows between 1470-1490 taking in consideration the Gothic full plate armors with long, pointed sabatons, headdress and other details, but the sabatons especially. If we check the illuminated miniatures painted during 1490s we can easily find that shoes and sabatons shown in those fine arts sources becoming blunt-nosed not the pointed anymore. I believe these stained glass windows were inspired by the events of Burgundian war 1476-1477 and by the perfect Swiss victories at Grandson, Morat (Murten in German) and Nancy. Thank you in adavance for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
Oleg



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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is turning out to be a pretty tough project. A lot of saints carry a book so the possibilities are a lot wider. Then there is the allowance for artistic variations.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
Joined: 02 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri 09 Oct, 2009 3:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear all,
At last I have found the information that there was Saint Fridolin on the banner of Glarus. Saint Fridolin was the Irish monk who converted the canton of Glarus to Christianity in the sixth century.

Unfortunately I donít have any idea whom, I mean which canton, town or noble family, that blue banner with Saint Bishop belonged to.

Sincerely,
Oleg
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