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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Information on this sword?         Reply with quote

I was wondering if anyone has any further information on the sword pictured below.



It is in Osprey's English Medieval Knight 1300-1400 on page 16. I am not sure how easy to read the text will be so I will paraphrase. A sword made for a child found in the River Thames believing to date from the first half of the 14th century.

Scott

Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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Jorge Santos




Location: Portugal
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug, 2009 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The picture is upside down.....but the sword is a "stock"....do you know where it was found??...it was usual that the nobles ordered small swords for they young sons...so they could initiate they practice to be kniths when they get the proper age...try to find about the noble family`s in the area where sword was found.....thatīs a beginning....
jorge santos
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Dan Dickinson
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm I was wondering why they described it as made for a boy considering its listed size of 40 inches....but then i realized that the book had a typo.....78.5 cm isn't 40 inches.....it's much closer to 30.....so the child-sized reference made sense.
Dan
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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Dickinson wrote:
Hmm I was wondering why they described it as made for a boy considering its listed size of 40 inches....but then i realized that the book had a typo.....78.5 cm isn't 40 inches.....it's much closer to 30.....so the child-sized reference made sense.
Dan


I was thrown by the same thing at first Dan, until I did the conversion. Not a bad looking sword though.

From the look and description I would say it fit best as a TypeXVI. Does that Sound right to everyone?

Scott

Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug, 2009 5:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jorge Santos wrote:
The picture is upside down.....but the sword is a "stock"....do you know where it was found??...it was usual that the nobles ordered small swords for they young sons...so they could initiate they practice to be kniths when they get the proper age...try to find about the noble family`s in the area where sword was found.....thatīs a beginning....


Jorge,
By "stock" do you mean not a custom piece? That is what I am guessing at least. According to the picture it was found in the RIver Thames. It does not give an exact location where along the river unfortunately so trying to figure out which noble family is going to be hard.

The information I am really looking for is what type as well as possible information of where it currently is as well as measurements besides the length.

Scott

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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Aug, 2009 4:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

30" sword might as well be a knight's riding sword. I'm not very convinced it is a child's sword.
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Tue 25 Aug, 2009 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I read somewhere that is not always so short swords were for children. Some, especially the nobles, loved carrying swords shorter, less bulky. Mmmm ... is it true?
Maurizio
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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Aug, 2009 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
30" sword might as well be a knight's riding sword. I'm not very convinced it is a child's sword.


The only way that I could possibly see it as a child's sword is if it were a hand and a half one. The grip looks longer then a one hander to me but then the picture is distorted from my scanning it. In the original picture it does look long to me. Without seeing it in person or having more measurements then just a length of the blade it is hard to say. Though from the way it is worded that is an overall length.

Scott

Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Aug, 2009 1:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
I read somewhere that is not always so short swords were for children. Some, especially the nobles, loved carrying swords shorter, less bulky. Mmmm ... is it true?
Maurizio


Maybe it was a "dress" sword for use while hunting or at court or social functions? That is a very good point Maurizio about nobles wanting less bulky swords which led to my last thought in the previous sentence.

The only way that I could see it being used as the main sword on the battlefield is by someone os short stature.

Scott

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Jorge Santos




Location: Portugal
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Sep, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Scott.... I think thatīs not a dress Sword...the dress Sword i think only appears in the xvi cent. ....the so called Rapier..... the Sword of the picture by the type of pommel and blade y think is from early xiv cent....thatīs when blades became to be used more to thrust than.... to cut...because the increasing of armours there was the need to find small openings and week points in the armours and coats of mail...... By other side...usually the Swords used by a knigth were longer than this one..so they could reach a foot soldier from the saddle of the horse....usually a knigth uses at least 2 swords......one on his belt ...and another longer...hanged in the saddle near the neck of the horse......
jorge santos
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Sep, 2009 5:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Civilian swords, riding swords, what ever you call them, are not specific for renaissance. You have them from viking age on... Warrior of any era understood that if his battle sword is too big to be carried on all occasions he needs one which is appropriate for that but can still do the job and protect him better than ordinary knife or dagger.
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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Sep, 2009 6:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka,
Thank you for responding to Jorge's post. I was trying to figure out what I wanted to say to explain my last post and you did an excellent job of describing what I was trying to say.

I would still like to learn more about this sword if anyone has any more information about it.

Scott

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Jorge Santos




Location: Portugal
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Sep, 2009 5:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello luka!!!.....And thankīs for your reply....but no matter what you say.....the fact is that knigths INDEED.use very long swords!!!!....there are many books about that ....See ARMS & ARMOUR OF THE MEDIEVAL knigth...by David Edge & John Miles Paddock..... Another Thing...a Knigth does not depends of his Sword to defense!!!...In fact the is weapon is the SPEAR!!!.. and if he breaks or looses it he would use is AXE!!... and finally the ...SWORD..!!!.. and thatīs because his SWORD is his most valuable weapon....and his own symbol....By the way ....what do you think about the CLAYMORE....and the landsknecht.......Big Swords!!!!! and not easy to carry on...?????.... But they exist!!!!....... Cheers!
jorge santos
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Sep, 2009 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jorge Santos-

Stop yelling. Change your tone.

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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Sep, 2009 5:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jorge,
I agree that for war the knight uses a sword with a long blade so as to fight more effectively from horseback. What both Luka and I are speaking about are times when peace reigns and they are doing other things. Say on a courtly hunt with other knights, nobles, or even royalty. Would they carry their heavier swords made for heavy combat? Or smaller blades that would allow them to defend themselves when needed.

Scott

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Jorge Santos




Location: Portugal
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Sep, 2009 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Scott... your rigth....when not at war the big Swords were resting....and there was no need for a knigth to wear those heavy weapons.....but surely they would always keep is belt Sword....and that one was for battle...duel..or peace times..and they wear the daggers too...who could be more propper for hunting...I do believe that in the XIV cent. there were not the kind of Sword you mean to say....it apears latter in the XVI cent....i presume......So iīm still convinced thats a child Sword......Cheers!!
jorge santos
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Jorge Santos




Location: Portugal
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Sep, 2009 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Nathan!....Excuse me for my tone!.........but let me explain i was not yelling i was only marking the important words....as i do when i write the name of a book.....or an author.....it was not my inttencion to yell with no one.....But Iīm sorry if it looks like i was yelling.....that was not the intencion......Cheers!!!
jorge santos
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Sat 05 Sep, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

XVI.4, from Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval sword, is type XVI sword with the blade length of only 53.4cm and it is accepted as such knightly riding sword, and it is dated to 1300-1325.
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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Sep, 2009 6:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No Jorge, it is exactly the type of sword I am talking about. As Luka pointed out, with a dated example, there are examples of this type of sword showing up much earlier then you think.

Anyhow, I did not ask to debate what people think this sword was used for or is. I want to see if there is anymore information about it. So let us keep on topic about that instead wasting time with something that I was not looking for when I started this thread. You could start a different thread about this if you wanted to.

Scott

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