Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Italian Swordsmanship Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Felix R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Reading list: 25 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Mon 10 Aug, 2009 1:43 pm    Post subject: Italian Swordsmanship         Reply with quote

Hi there, publications are rare for us interested in the Longsword treatises of the Italian school. Most people are looking for the Liechtenauer system. Finally, there seems to be something new for us. Found a trailer on Youtube. It looks promising.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQHT-bYelCA
View user's profile Send private message
Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Mon 10 Aug, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, there are really only two longsword treatises from the Italian school-Fiore and Vadi. The latter has been available from Chivalry bookshelf for several years, and the Getty version of the former is available now courtesy of Tom Leoni via Lulu.com.



Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
R D Moore




Location: Portland Oregon
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages
Reading list: 11 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 425

PostPosted: Mon 10 Aug, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guy Windsor has a book out using Fiore. Here's a link to it on Amazon. Chivalry may have some copies, too.
http://www.amazon.com/Swordmans-Companion-Tra...amp;sr=1-1

So with Tom Leoni and Guy Windsor both having works published, you have quite a selection for Italian longsword manuals. I own Windsor's book perhaps because Leoni's wasn't available. I do have his book on Italian Rapier though, and either author will guide you through it in careful detail and with clear explanations.

"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Mon 10 Aug, 2009 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the book by Brian Price that we use as our core course in Fiore's Italian Longsword:

http://revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPR...2&HS=1

I also second Guy Windsor's book. Together, they are both excellent resources.

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
View user's profile Send private message
Colin Richards




Location: Germany
Joined: 15 Aug 2009

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 1:52 am    Post subject: Italian Longsword from the Treatises of Fiore dei Liberi         Reply with quote

“Medieval Combat Italian Longsword - Student Guide Level 1”
from the Treatises of Fiore dei Liberi by Colin Richards

Arts of Mars Books Publishing House presents a new DVD on the art of Fiore dei Liberi’s Longsword combat from 1409 A.D.

This DVD is useful for practitioners of various levels of competence, from the beginner to the experienced. It explores in depth aspects of turning, stepping, striking both blow and thrust. We have systematised Fiore’s longsword art using simple building blocks combined in such a way as to make the learning simple and rewarding.

This specially designed DVD is divided into 4 parts
Introduction including

* Historical aspects
* Sword smith Stefan Roth (Seelenschmiede) at work
* Equipment etc.

Theory containing 42 sections including:

* Gripping the Sword
* Breathing Technique
* Stance
* Turning
* Tactical Stepping
* Basic Guard Positions
* Cutting with the Sword
* Thrusting with the Sword
* Distance

Single Person Drills containing 37 sections to practise the theory with.
Partner Drills containing 32 sections to practise the theory with.

Selectable sub chapters help to quickly find the drill or exercise you were working on last. All sections are numbered for ease of reference.

This DVD is ideal for establishing a curriculum for a study group, including everything you will need for the first year. The student will gain a good grounding in all aspects of Fiore dei Liberi’s Longsword System for both one and two handed use of the weapon for both cut and thrust.

The structure of this DVD is based on the idea that after the content of this DVD has been assimilated the student will quickly grasp all aspects of the of Fiore dei Liberi’s system of combat and hence all techniques will become intuitive to learn.

This DVD does not contain a breakdown of the techniques of Fiore dei Liberi’s Longsword, but on the other hand systematically creates the groundwork for the successful application of those techniques. The techniques and Fiore’s complete Longsword system will be explored in greater depth in Student Guide 2 and 3.

This DVD is a must for those who seriously want to learn the fundamental principles of Fiore dei Liberi’s Longsword Combat System. It is structured for easy learning for both single persons and groups and is finely tuned to help any experience level from absolute beginner to advanced practitioner.

Technical Details:
NTSC 4:3 Language: English Sound: Dolby Digital Duration: 1 hour 50 min.
ISBN: 1978-3-9811627-1-4 Regular Price: 39,90 Euro

Special Offer for preorders till 31. August 2009
only 35,00 Euro plus Free Shipping! (instead of Regular Price of 39,90 Euro)
Available under www.ArtsOfMarsBooks.com


Arts Of Mars Books Publishing House, Colin Richards, Germany, www.ArtsOfMars.com, mail: books@ArtsOfMars.com, phone: +49 (0) 5723/ 799 447[[/b]

Colin Richards
Founder, Head Instructor
Arts of Mars HEMA Academy,
HEMAC Member
Author: Fiore Dei Liberi 1409: Wrestling and Dagger (English and German)
Author: DVD Medieval Combat Italian Longsword from the Treatises of Fioire dei Liberi 1409
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Windsor also has training videos on YouTube (example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snXGUXH64K8).
They pair very nicely with his book The Swordsman's Companion as an intro to Italian Swordsmanship.
Best,
Hadrian

Historia magistra vitae est
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Likes: 3 pages
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 649

PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 6:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I want to start fencing Italian Fiore dei Liberi. A serious school is very far from where I live. Do you think I can learn from books and DVD? Or I need a master? Alone is impossible?
Thanks for your advice, will be much appreciated.
Maurizio

P.S.
My son has the same passion, we are two.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
I want to start fencing Italian Fiore dei Liberi. A serious school is very far from where I live. Do you think I can learn from books and DVD? Or I need a master? Alone is impossible?
Thanks for your advice, will be much appreciated.
Maurizio

P.S.
My son has the same passion, we are two.


books and DVDs may be a good place to start, but in the long run you will want to at least attend some seminars by instructors from a more established school or get private lessons. The sooner you can do that the better, since a video can't correct nuances in movement or positioning. the downside is that their interpretation may not match those in the video.


I'd advise also checking out Pete Kautz's essay on how to get the most out of a martial arts training video:
http://alliancemartialarts.com/videolearning.htm


good luck!

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,177

PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2009 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
I want to start fencing Italian Fiore dei Liberi. A serious school is very far from where I live. Do you think I can learn from books and DVD? Or I need a master? Alone is impossible?
Thanks for your advice, will be much appreciated.
Maurizio

P.S.
My son has the same passion, we are two.


I've found that DVDs are very helpful in understanding the books but real practice with a group with a good swordmaster makes the DVDs even more useful. Wink

In other words the books and the DVDs are a lot better than nothing, and intellectually can give some idea about the subject, but they become really useful " AFTER " taking courses and re-reading or re-viewing but the sense of space and timing as well as pressure of blade on blade ( waster on waster or blunt on blunt ) need to be practised physically.

Even a one day seminar can help make the books make more sense. Wink

Oh, and I find the activity very relaxing and stress relieving but maybe some people get tense instead if they are too selfconcious to just let their body learn without their ego getting in the way ? To me it's meditation in motion " mind with no mind " sort of thing and after a class I am as stress free as I can get. ( Even when In the rare cases I found it stressful when trying to learn something more difficult to understand and execute properly ).

Anyway, got a little off Topic about how enjoyable training can be as both physical exercise and as a mental health thing: The old " sound mind in a sound body " that the Greeks talked about. Wink Big Grin Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Likes: 3 pages
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 649

PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for your advice friends.
I understand that I expect 200 km. to go to school. Mad Cool Laughing Out Loud
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,177

PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2009 8:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Thanks for your advice friends.
I understand that I expect 200 km. to go to school. Mad Cool Laughing Out Loud


Certainly not very convenient to do every week but if you can arrange for a good seminar or private course(s) to get you started and maybe do a few of these with a training partner you could then practice at home what you have learned and find that " youtube " or DVDs or books could fill in the absence of weekly classes.

I'm sure people here can try to help you with advice when you have specific technical questions to ask.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Diviccaro Roberto





Joined: 15 Dec 2005

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Mon 17 Aug, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all
Maurizio they are 140 km to go to school not 200.
Evil Please!! i am too!!! will you go without me?
Your son is too young for you.
dvd books and other media are important but the school is the school. it's too different.
in school the master see and correct your error. at home who see and corrects your errors?

bye
View user's profile Send private message
Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Likes: 3 pages
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon 17 Aug, 2009 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Diviccaro Roberto wrote:
Hi all
Maurizio they are 140 km to go to school not 200.
Evil Please!! i am too!!! will you go without me?
Your son is too young for you.
dvd books and other media are important but the school is the school. it's too different.
in school the master see and correct your error. at home who see and corrects your errors?

bye


Thank you, Roberto.
I have saved, 60 KM. Happy
I saved a part of petrol needed. Razz Cool Laughing Out Loud
Please contact p.m. to find out which school and where it is.
Certainly, the idea of learning in two or three, I like much.
Ciao.
Maurizio
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,177

PostPosted: Mon 17 Aug, 2009 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Diviccaro Roberto wrote:
Hi all
Maurizio they are 140 km to go to school not 200.
Evil Please!! i am too!!! will you go without me?
Your son is too young for you.
dvd books and other media are important but the school is the school. it's too different.
in school the master see and correct your error. at home who see and corrects your errors?

bye


Thank you, Roberto.
I have saved, 60 KM. Happy
I saved a part of petrol needed. Razz Cool Laughing Out Loud
Please contact p.m. to find out which school and where it is.
Certainly, the idea of learning in two or three, I like much.
Ciao.
Maurizio


Well going with a training partner is a very good idea as you then have someone with the same information to practice with before you forget the content of the course and reinforce the learning of the techniques while the information is fresh in both your minds and have someone who can watch you do a solo drill and critique your moves. Cool

If you can go to a class once a month or so to learn more things and to have the instructor correct you " possible " mistakes or just confirmed that you have been practising the previous class information correctly i.e. good feedback.

Having a training partner is also motivational and gives you somebody to talk to as well.

If you can find a few other people to join in or go with you in time you might be able to form your own group and bring in an instructor who would travel to you instead of travelling to him ?

Anyway, hope it works out for you and looking forward to your impressions although I train in the German style. Big Grin Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Colin Richards




Location: Germany
Joined: 15 Aug 2009

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon 17 Aug, 2009 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
I want to start fencing Italian Fiore dei Liberi. A serious school is very far from where I live. Do you think I can learn from books and DVD? Or I need a master? Alone is impossible?
Thanks for your advice, will be much appreciated.
Maurizio

P.S.
My son has the same passion, we are two.


HI Maurizio,

This DVD that we have produced is very detailed and is designed to be easy to learn from. We breakdown the movements in simple steps and explain everything we can given the limited time of 1 hour 50 minutes. The DVD will certainly help enormously until you can attend a proper school.

We also offer the opportunity to join our Postal Membership course which includes more material.

We have made our best effort to help those people who have no curriculum and to make things as easy as possible for you.

We are very pleased with the results and hope the viewers come to the same conclusions - this video is designed to learn from.

All the best

Col
www.artsofmarsbooks.com

Colin Richards
Founder, Head Instructor
Arts of Mars HEMA Academy,
HEMAC Member
Author: Fiore Dei Liberi 1409: Wrestling and Dagger (English and German)
Author: DVD Medieval Combat Italian Longsword from the Treatises of Fioire dei Liberi 1409
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Likes: 3 pages
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon 17 Aug, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

If you can find a few other people to join in or go with you in time you might be able to form your own group and bring in an instructor who would travel to you instead of travelling to him ?
Anyway, hope it works out for you and looking forward to your impressions although I train in the German style.


Hi Jean,
Your idea is good.
I have read the Flos Duellatorum and Liechtenauer (I only read, not studied). It seems that both are written in verse. Not usual to explain the techniques. What is the main difference in technique? The sword used may be the same?
salutations cordiales
Maurizio

Colin Richards wrote:

We are very pleased with the results and hope the viewers come to the same conclusions - this video is designed to learn from.



Hi Colin,
I have seen. Keep in mind. Thank you.
Congratulations on your long curriculum.
Grüße
Maurizio
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,177

PostPosted: Mon 17 Aug, 2009 6:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
What is the main difference in technique? The sword used may be the same?
salutations cordiales
Maurizio



I'm not knowledgeable enough in the Italian school to really tell you much with any great confidence but here a a couple of things as generalities: The German school works at lot from above, the Italian from the ground up to a degree. More emphasis on working at the bind and windings in the German school.

The Italian school coming into close range more and favouring wresting and maybe a little more linear. The German school moving out of line, to the side, more in the attack and defence.

Now, I might be all wrong here and I hope someone like Bill Grandy or Michael Edelson or Christian Tobbler would chime in and correct anything I got really wrong here before it causes to much " damage " or confirm that I am right in general but correct and add to the details ...... Anyway, saying something wrong, out of one's depth or stupid is usually a great way to get people to rush to correct one's errors. Wink Razz Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Colin Richards




Location: Germany
Joined: 15 Aug 2009

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue 18 Aug, 2009 2:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Colin Richards wrote:

We are very pleased with the results and hope the viewers come to the same conclusions - this video is designed to learn from.

Also: What is the main difference in technique? The sword used may be the same?

Hi Colin,
I have seen. Keep in mind. Thank you.
Congratulations on your long curriculum.
Grüße
Maurizio


Hi Maurizio

Good question about the difference in technique!

Firstly one should point out that the German school sometimes use a "special grip" on the sword called today the Thumb grip. We have no direct evidence that Fiore used this though I would suggest that he definitely knew about it, and maybe had a use for it though as yet I am not willing to stick my neck out.

Secondly techniques: It seems that there is a very close relationship between the technique Zornhau-ort and the first technique of Fiore, except that the German school the person making the technique takes the blow on the strong of the sword and in Fiore he takes meats the opponents blade in the weak of his sword on the weak of theirs. Several other techniques are very similar in execution.

Thirdly there are not many techniques described by Fiore compared to those described in the German system. Fiore is presenting his system more as a group of principles that can be applied to situations than as a discrete list of techniques, though once you know his complete system, one could say that this is all you need.
The German system seems to be, so to say, a list of technical reactions to various types of opposition, where the techniques develop in complexity of response (mainly because of a change in the fulen/feeling in the blade) as the opponent is more knowledgeable. Of course from these techniques one can derive the principles as before, though there seems to be much more detail than in Fiore.

Generally I would say that there is no real difference in the Italian or German systems in regards working from above and below, though this is only my personal opinion. Also both systems are explicit about working from the bind. The bind is relatively safe if bound at the middle or lower on the sword and therefore seems to be considered as a nice place to be. Laughing Out Loud
Without the bind your opponent armed with a sharp sword better be dead, unconscious, wounded or well out of distance!

My analysis of the Fiore's system leads me to believe that a major theme is control of the central line coupled with another major theme, that is creating new central lines from safe positions, that is going off line (and if you want that explaining see the DVD and wait for my new website to be updated!). Fiore seems to use very little Winden.

My new analysis of the German system (is not yet finished by the way) is that the central line while being important is not the main theme. The German school seems to utilise many different technical approaches from controlling the central line to stepping wide, to directly entering, to winding. Winding is a major theme in the German school which I would say Fiore circumvents in the most part, though clearly I do not think he was ignorant of the technique as fulen or feeling in the blade is a main aspect of winding and Fiore's techniques from the bind are all dependent upon fulen as well.

As for Fiore being more interested in wrestling than the German school, I would not like to say, other than his wrestling techniques are more to the fore than in the German treatises. Fiore is very definite in his opinion that he can wrestle and that he can do it pretty well thank you very much.

Hope that helps

Col
www.artofmars.com

Colin Richards
Founder, Head Instructor
Arts of Mars HEMA Academy,
HEMAC Member
Author: Fiore Dei Liberi 1409: Wrestling and Dagger (English and German)
Author: DVD Medieval Combat Italian Longsword from the Treatises of Fioire dei Liberi 1409
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Likes: 3 pages
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 649

PostPosted: Tue 18 Aug, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Colin,

I hope to be not off topic.
I see that both Italian longsword is German longsword, for combat are lighter and with a POB less biased towards the tip.

Well, so much hard work has been done to interpret verses from the technique of the two masters. The goal I think, is to interpret how to fight for our ancient knights. Why use swords, which have facilities in the movements?
Our ancient knights, fought not with weapons "facilitated." Eek!
I think that would be correct, learn the techniques with the same weapons that they used the ancient knights.
Ciao
Maurizio
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Colin Richards




Location: Germany
Joined: 15 Aug 2009

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 11 Sep, 2009 12:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Folks

Just a little update.

After several problems with the producer who managed to come up with every excuse except "the DVD machine ate my dog, so we could not press the DVD" not to produce the DVD on time, we have received them and sent out the first batch, so you should receive them soon!

I must admit the whole thing looks rather sexy and I again have to praise my wonderful wife Sandra for executing such a wonderful design on the cover and throughout the DVD!

We hope to offer Visa and other Cards soon on our new web site - we will keep you posted.

Reviews some time soon from some well known people!

Best regards

Col

Colin Richards
Founder, Head Instructor
Arts of Mars HEMA Academy,
HEMAC Member
Author: Fiore Dei Liberi 1409: Wrestling and Dagger (English and German)
Author: DVD Medieval Combat Italian Longsword from the Treatises of Fioire dei Liberi 1409
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Italian Swordsmanship
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum