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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject: Messer: searching location & info         Reply with quote

I recently came across a nice messer. Photos were posted on a german forum, but I could not make out any mention of where the photos were taken. Possibly some of our german speaking memebers recognize the images.
What I´d like to know is where the messer might be located.
Anyone recognize this beautiful messer, or perhaps even have come across it on a pilgrimage? I thought that the helmet might reveal what museum it is. I am not familiar enough of these, unfortunately....

(EDIT: now I am fairly sure the helmet is the one Chad Arnow uses as his signature mage.
Chad: could you provide some clues, please?)

I thought at first it was a Polish weapon, that I had some info on. But comparing the drawing in the article makes it clear it is a different weapon.

It would be worth while to make a trip just to study this one first hand!

Images:



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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter,
If that's this helm:



Then that helm was/is in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Nuremburg, according to Howard Curtis's book 2,500 Years of European Helmets.

But the fleurs de lis look different and the central reinforcing band at the occularium seems different/not present.

Edit: the more I look at it, the less sure I am that these are the same two helms. The one in Peter's pic, has different fleurs de lis and rivets where the Nuremburg helm is missing them.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 8:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Chad!

No, you are right: they are not the same. The shape and placing of the fleur de lys is different. There are rivets along the top which is flat, or near flat, on the helm n the image I posted, while your helm has a ridged top and holes instead of rivets. Interesting there are two such similar hems surviving!
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Would this particular kind of sidearm be considered a "Bauernwehr"?

M.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 9:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter, great find. I love that example. Wow.


M. Eversberg II wrote:
Would this particular kind of sidearm be considered a "Bauernwehr"?


I would think it's simply a grossemesser because of its size.

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Martin Fischer




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Peter,

the Messer is from the Collection in Schloss Glatt/Germany, I think.

The original dates around 1500 - I've got a replica of it, made by Manfred Pany. You can see it (including some measurements) at:

http://www.manfred-pany.de/index.php?title=ga...ategorie=1

Here's a very similar piece:

http://www.dietraumschmiede.de/fecht/fecht.htm

This type of Messer appears in some Lehküchner-manuscripts for example. It was a popular weapon particulary in the south of Germany.

regards

Martin
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 10:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
Would this particular kind of sidearm be considered a "Bauernwehr"?

M.


Too long for that. The Bauernwehr/Hauswehr is just a large utility knife.

Peter, is it safe to assume that the quillons have been broken off and/or intentionally shortened? I don't think I've seen a messer with such a short cross.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Peter, is it safe to assume that the quillons have been broken off and/or intentionally shortened? I don't think I've seen a messer with such a short cross.


Here's just one example. I happen to love the blade on this one.


A Grosse Messer, circa 1500
Appearing in a Christie's auction catalog, October 1994.


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Martin Fischer




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello again,

I don`t think that this was shortened - this type of short cross was not unusual and you can find it on a lot of pictures of the very late 15th cent..

Regards

Martin
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin: Thank you very much! This is valuable information.

Sean: short guard is a feature on some Messer. The same short guard is clearly illustrated in the Lehküchner-manuscripts, just as Martin said. For some types of techniques a short guard may be a benefit. I think it is much a matter of time and locality as well.

Thank you all for so ready and quick responses!
I have now a trail to follow :-)
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