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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 1:12 am    Post subject: Historic screw-on pommels?         Reply with quote

Gladiatoria, a 15th century fight manual, includes a (strange) technique that is worded as such:

===
Mark this is the twelth play: If you would rashly close with foe: Thus take your spear and sword together in your arm and screw off the pommel from your sword and throw it at him heartily, and interlope with him after the throw, and use sword or spear, whichever be fine by you. If foe thus would throw his pommel at you: Then put your targe before you and catch the throw thereupon and put the spear before you in the right hand, stab at him and be ready so that he not interlope you, as he has in mind to do.
===

I was wondering if anyone knows of particular examples that show this form of construction? Particularly interested in close-ups of the threading on the tang.

M.

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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 2:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Happy

Is it this technique?

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 2:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Read this thread I started some time ago.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ew+pommels
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 2:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mr. Luka Borscak Happy
Oh sorry, I overlooked your topic. Wink

I look for the site of English translated text of Gladiatoria.
I found images of Gladiatoria... but there is not a commentary and does not understand it in detail...

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 3:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nothing was returned that met my search criteria when I tried earlier. I'll give the thread a look.

M.

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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 6:37 am    Post subject: Book         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
Thanks Mr. Luka Borscak Happy
Oh sorry, I overlooked your topic. Wink

I look for the site of English translated text of Gladiatoria.
I found images of Gladiatoria... but there is not a commentary and does not understand it in detail...


Hello,

I have published a translation of Gladiatoria that can be purchased here:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/th...ch/5806982

The text of that specific plate says:
"Note the twelfth technique: If you want to end quickly with him, take your spear and sword together on your arm and unscrew the pommel of your sword and throw it vigorously at him and run in with him after the throw, and use the sword or the spear Ė whatever is more suitable for you.

If he throws his pommel at you this way, then take your shield before you, and catch the throw on it, and take your spear before you in your right hand for the thrust and defend yourself so that he canít run in at you as he wants to do."

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 2:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mr. Hugh Knight Happy
Quote:
I have published a translation of Gladiatoria that can be purchased here:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/th...ch/5806982

I read some preview pages of your book. It is very good. Happy
Mmm... However, I like online texts... Because it's free!!! Big Grin (and I'm poor Cry )

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ew+pommels
Quote:
Mr. Hugh Knight wrote:
So I'm sorry, but with respect, this is just a Fechtmeister showing off his cool secret tricks to impress people, it's not a viable technique.

I have doubt about this technique(throw a pommel).
I have not watched such a technique in other illust of fechtbuch.
Is this technique only Gladiatoria? Question

Reference:
http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/gladiato...s_body.htm

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
I have doubt about this technique(throw a pommel).
I have not watched such a technique in other illust of fechtbuch.
Is this technique only Gladiatoria? Question


This is the only instance of this being done of which I am aware (well, unless you count the other Gladiatoria editions, but they're really the same book).

The idea of this play is simply that you are trying to force your opponent to defend himself rather than attacking you while you close into range. It's just a way to get safely inside his spear's point, in other words. Most sources show that you throw your spear for this purpose, but Gladiatoria shows that you can use your pommel.

Regards,
Hugh
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I read somewhere, I do not remember where, that the earliest use of metal screw mechanisms began in the 17th c. Perhaps in the translation of the book the word which became "screw" was unknown or mis-translated. It is also possible the pommel simply came loose and perhaps the reference was to one particular incident where a pommel was used as a missile although that is not what the passage says.

As an aside, a gentleman approached me at a Highland Games three years ago to show me his 13th century sword. It had very well-made machine threads on the end of the tang (the grip and pommel were missing). He said he bought the sword from a local antique dealer for $400. Of course the threads were not the only thing that gave it away as a modern made sword but they did jump out at you.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Justin King
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 5:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think this thread pretty well covered the subject- http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ed+pommels
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 1:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mr. Hugh Knight Happy
Quote:
This is the only instance of this being done of which I am aware (well, unless you count the other Gladiatoria editions, but they're really the same book).

I understood it! Big Grin
But... I always had doubt about Gladiatoria.

Wikipedia: Gladiatoria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiatoria
Quote:
The techniques depicted have some peculiarities not known from other Fechtbucher, and it is considered as not directly influenced by the mainstream German school based on the teachings of Liechtenauer's.

Many people know this thing...
However, I don't know about these techniques which are written only in Gladiatoria.

What kind of skills are there other than this technique(throw a pommel). Question
or
How many techniques appear in only Gladiatoria? Question

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
But... I always had doubt about Gladiatoria.

Wikipedia: Gladiatoria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiatoria
Quote:
The techniques depicted have some peculiarities not known from other Fechtbucher, and it is considered as not directly influenced by the mainstream German school based on the teachings of Liechtenauer's.

Many people know this thing...
However, I don't know about these techniques which are written only in Gladiatoria.

What kind of skills are there other than this technique(throw a pommel). Question
or
How many techniques appear in only Gladiatoria? Question


Hello,

While some argue that Gladiatoria is not in the Liechtenauer tradition, I disagree. It does show some techniques that aren't included in any other source, such as the pommel throw, but then, Paulus Kal shows some things differently from how other Liechtenauer Society members do, and yet he is certainly part of that group.

Gladiatoria shows a number of unusual techniques. One example, is this spear play:
http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/Gladiatoria/4.jpg
which is almost Fiore-like in that you start with the spear horizontal, then displace and step with an Absetzen against an attack. The text says:
"Note the first technique of the spear: When you first step into the lists and become aware of your opponent, then take your shield in your left hand and ready the spear for a strong thrust from above. And look where best you can hit him with your thrust.

So take your spear into both hands and strongly strike out the thrust he wanted to do to you, and after you have struck out his thrust set your left foot forward and thrust powerfully at him with both hands."

Another similar play is here:
http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/Gladiatoria/6.jpg
In which you do a similar action, starting with a more vertical spear shaft:
"Note the third technique of the spear: If he grabbed his spear with full strength and wants to thrust to your face, then place your spear before you on the ground with the iron up and thrust up from below so that you save yourself from the thrust he wanted to do to your face, and turn your point forward and thrust back at him as well as you can."

So it ends with a kind of Absetzen, too.

Still, I think the plays are rather more like other Liechtenauer authors than not, in spite of these outlier techniques. If you really look at the halfsword material, for example, you see much the same things you see in Ringeck, von Danzig, etc. Sure, there are some differences, but then Huntfeldt shows things different from Lignitzer in the von Danzig Fechtbuch; are we to claim they're not part of the Liechtenauer Canon?

Regards,
Hugh
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 1:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Mr. Hugh Knight Happy
Thank you for commenting very closely. Big Grin

Quote:
I have published a translation of Gladiatoria that can be purchased here:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/th...ch/5806982

someday I am going to read your book... Happy

p.s.
We see the black/white photos of Gladiatoria in many sites.
Of course the original is a color.
Are there the site(university, library etc...) where a color photo appears in?

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Aug, 2009 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
We see the black/white photos of Gladiatoria in many sites.
Of course the original is a color.
Are there the site(university, library etc...) where a color photo appears in?


There are three almost-identical copies of the Gladiatoria Fechtbuch: One in Krakow (the one I translated), one in Vienna, and one at Yale University.

At the time when I wrote my book there were no full-color scans available, however, the Vienna MS has subsequently been posted on line. It can be found here:

http://www.paravoid.se/hema/manuals/liechtena...Vienna.zip

Tell me, are there any other color pictures on the site you got the above picture from? I looked at it, but it's in Japanese and I can't see anything there.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
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Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri 07 Aug, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Mr. Hugh Knight Happy
Quote:
At the time when I wrote my book there were no full-color scans available, however, the Vienna MS has subsequently been posted on line. It can be found here:
http://www.paravoid.se/hema/manuals/liechtena...Vienna.zip

Thanks!!! Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

Quote:
Tell me, are there any other color pictures on the site you got the above picture from?

I'm sorry... I found this color photo with google image search a few years ago.
And the site appear in this small size photo only. (There was no large photos. There was no other photos.)
Of course I think this small photo was resized large(original) photo.
But I couldn't find large(original) photos...

Quote:
I looked at it, but it's in Japanese and I can't see anything there.

You look this photo in Japanese site? Eek!
Ummm I can't found...
If I found the Japanese site I can translate... Sad

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Fri 07 Aug, 2009 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
You look this photo in Japanese site? Eek!
Ummm I can't found...
If I found the Japanese site I can translate... Sad


I took the URL for the picture you posted and removed the last part of it, leaving just the name of the site. I did that in the hopes that there would be a parent directory with more of these color pictures. When I did that, it took me to a Japanese web page. I don't believe there's anythign to translate, however--it didn't seem to relate to this (no thumbnails, etc.)

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a sword in the Real Armeria in Madrid that has a screw on pommel. IIRC, it was either 15th or 16th C.

Unfortunately, it was not allowed to take pictures there....
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