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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Jul, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject: about 16th "splayed-toed" sabatons         Reply with quote

about 16th "splayed-toed" sabatons...

I think in doubt about "splayed-toed sabatons" all the time...
"splayed-toed sabatons" is a sabaton of the common kind in 16th armours(fluted Maximilian type) etc...


"Splayed-toed sabatons" are written as "bear-paw sabaton" or "Kuhmaulschuh(German)" in some sites.

If you search it by words of "Kuhmaulschuh" in Google Image.
http://images.google.co.jp/images?sourceid=na...amp;tab=wi
You can finds some splayed-toed shoes. (Most sites are written in German, and I can't read)


I have a question.
Is the shape of the "splayed-toed sabaton" merely fashion? Question Or is it increases the defense powers of the sabaton? Question

I think that these "Kuhmaulschuh" shoes are the origin of the "splayed-toed sabaton".
It is so... I have a question...
When a knight wears "splayed-toed sabatons"... Does he wear the shoes of this type(Kuhmaulschuh)? or a common shoes? Question
I have a feeling that they wear common shoes... If it is so... I think it to be hard to walk when a knight wear "bear-paw sabaton" with common shoes...

Mmm, it is too difficult to write in English. Cry Cry Cry
simply write...
* Is the shape of the "splayed-toed sabaton" merely fashion?
* When a knight wears "splayed-toed sabaton". He wear a common shoes?
* Are "splayed-toed sabaton" hard to walk?

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;


Last edited by Ushio Kawana on Thu 16 Jul, 2009 3:41 am; edited 2 times in total
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Adam S.





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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 12:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kawana-san,

Anata no e-go ga sugoi yo! Boku no nihon-go ga warui...

Seriously. Ushio, your English is better than some native speakers. Not only that, but you also ask very relevant and interesting questions. All of the threads you have started have been good threads. Keep asking your questions, Ushio-san. I learn allot from the threads that you start.

I could not communicate on a Japanese language board at all, even with my basic understanding of the language. The best I can do is tell when the sub-titles of a movie are different from what the actors are saying.

I am sorry to say that I do not have any of the answers that you are looking for, but I felt that I had to say something.

~Adam
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Mick Czerep




Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 12:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I would say that it started with the civilian fashion and was adapted by the armourers. This started earlier, if you look at Gothic backplates you will see that many of them imitate the shape of the fashionable jacket of the time in German-speaking countries. In my opinion putely fashion, in the same way as the very long and pointy sabatons were just a fashion imitating trendy civilian shoes.
Sordes ocurrit
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Bjorn Hagstrom




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 1:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How would these Sabatons work with stirrups? Or could we assume that wearing sabatons of this design means by default that the armour is for combat on foot?

My horsemanship is in its initial stages and as an unexperienced rider I find it hard enough to keep my normal boots in the stirrups when trotting along...and that is without having to worry about a handful of weapons in addition to keeping the reins under control Happy

There is nothing quite as sad as a one man conga-line...
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 5:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Ushio ,

you may find this earlier thread http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...puff+slash
also interesting (that is if you havent already seen it Wink ) . It deals with an armour that is heavily influenced by the landsknecht "puff and slash" fashion. I personally agree with other forumites that this is just a form of a period "fashion craze" (that could be afforded only by the wealthy élite) and has nothing to do with practical "field" application .

P.S: Your English is just fine , I am sure it will improve tremendously over time. I had (and still have as a non-native speaker of English) a bit of problem discussing such specific matters as arms and armour in English. However it is websites like myArmoury that will help you improve your language skill just by observing discussions.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 7:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Armour follows the fashion, and there's no reason to think that this makes the armour less suited for combat, except in the case of parade armour. In some cases, as with the extremely long and pointed shoes of the 15th c., field armour might be made so that it can be quickly altered as needed (removal or exchange of the long, pointed sabaton toe for dismounted combat). If the toe of the shoe is short and broad, the stirrups will be made accordingly. It simply defies logic that the owner of a complete harness would allow it to be rendered useless by the lack of two pieces of bent iron or a spring pin that allows the exchange of pieces. Big Grin
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's the clearest evidence I could find that the Kuhmaul was used by mounted men at arms. You can see that the gilded stirrup is shaped to fit this shoe/sabaton type. By the way, the same search shows Kuhmaul, moderately long and more modern-looking shapes in mounted use in the same period. As for ability to walk in these shoes: Kuhmaul shoes most closely conform to the shape of the human foot and typically appear to be of very thin leather. Walking in a properly made and fit pair would probably feel very comfortable--like walking barefoot but with protection from thorns, etc.


 Attachment: 165.25 KB
kuhmaul.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for all of your replies! Happy Happy Happy

Thanks Mr. Adam S., Mr. Mick Czerep, Mr. Bjorn Hagstrom, Mr. Samuel Bena, Mr. Sean Flynt !
I translate your replies into Japanese and read.
It takes tooooo Cry long time... Therefore I cannot write replies immediately. Sorry...

Quote:
How would these Sabatons work with stirrups?


This pdf-document of the link future may be useful.
When I examined it about "splayed-toed sabaton", I found this document.

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-...57_160.pdf

Quote:
The replacement of the long-toed sabaton (armourplated shoe) by the broad round-toe type (so-called 'bear-paw' sabaton) at the end of the 15th century necessitated a broader stirrup with a wider footplate. This also prevented the rider's foot from being caught in the stirrup when being dislodged from his mount.

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 8:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mick Czerep wrote:
Yes, I would say that it started with the civilian fashion and was adapted by the armourers. This started earlier, if you look at Gothic backplates you will see that many of them imitate the shape of the fashionable jacket of the time in German-speaking countries. In my opinion putely fashion, in the same way as the very long and pointy sabatons were just a fashion imitating trendy civilian shoes.


Sorry if i´m not of great help, but some parts of the armours were made to follow ¨lordly¨ civilian fashion, like the pleated skirt of the knight (¨Bases¨), or the cup like thingie wich protected (And simulated to be) the groin.
Correct me if i´m wrong.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Mick Czerep




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PostPosted: Fri 17 Jul, 2009 1:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're absolutely right. It was the rich who influenced fashion the most. In calss societies fashin starts at the top and slowly moves downwards. That's why Brueghel's peasants wear doublets and jackets that were fashionable 100 years earlier.
Sordes ocurrit
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jul, 2009 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Walking in a properly made and fit pair would probably feel very comfortable--like walking barefoot but with protection from thorns, etc.


Quite true, especially for people like me who are used to walking barefoot. For us, thin-soled historical shoes are something of a relief from the thicker and more constrictive soles of modern footwear!
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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Tue 21 Jul, 2009 12:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings Ushio,

I am looking at this from the perspective of a medieval shoe nerd.

Quote:
* Is the shape of the "splayed-toed sabaton" merely fashion?

Yes, I think so. It follows the form of the shoes, just as the graceful pointed sabatons of 15th century gothic armour followed the form of the shoes of that period. You are right to associate these with the "kuhmalschuhe".

Quote:
* When a knight wears "splayed-toed sabaton". He wear a common shoes?

At this time, the wide-toed shoes were common shoes, so he would be wearing shoes of that "kuhmalschuhe" style under the sabatons.

I don't have any information on whether people routinely commissioned special arming shoes with their armour or not, but the general form of the shoe would follow the form of the sabaton, or more correctly the sabaton follows the form of the shoe underneath it.

Quote:
* Are "splayed-toed sabaton" hard to walk?

I don't know about sabatons, but as long as there is a strap over the instep to hold the shoe on, this style of shoe isn't difficult to walk in.

--
Al.
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Jul, 2009 12:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
Walking in a properly made and fit pair would probably feel very comfortable--like walking barefoot but with protection from thorns, etc.


Quite true, especially for people like me who are used to walking barefoot. For us, thin-soled historical shoes are something of a relief from the thicker and more constrictive soles of modern footwear!


This style of shoe wasn't necessarily thin-soled at all. By the 16th century when this style was prevalent shoes were routinely made with double layer soles and much thicker outsoles than earlier-period turnshoes that were common from the early middle ages until the late 15th century. By the late 16th century (1590s) shoes were being made with low stacked heels as well and all of the elements of the fundamentally modern shoe with the exception of the shank were in place.

--
Al.
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jul, 2009 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for all of your replies! Happy
Quote:
At this time, the wide-toed shoes were common shoes, so he would be wearing shoes of that "kuhmalschuhe" style under the sabatons.

I understood that "splayed-toed sabaton" is a fashion. (and the other questions are cleared) Happy

We know that "pointed sabaton of 15th German Gothic Armour" was a fashion.
15th German Gothic Armour: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_gothic_armour.html
Quote:
The bizarre pointed sabatons had their origin in a peculiar whim of fashion of the period. As they were only meant to be worn on horseback, the points could be removed when the rider wished to go on foot.

But I don't know about "pointed sabaton" is called historically? Question

What are you called historically? Question
Why did these sabatons become such a shape? Question

----------------------------------

This illust appeared in wikipedia(Sabaton) before... But it does not appear now. Eek!
Sabaton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaton

Quote:
Sabatons' shape evolution by Wendelin Boeheim:
а) 1290-1390. b) 1300-1490. с) 1500-1530. d) 1530-1540. е) 1540-1550. f) 1550-1560. g) 1560-1590.
from book of Wendelin Boeheim "Handbuch der Waffenkunde. Das Waffenwesen in seiner historischen Entwicklung vom Beginn des Mittelalters bis zum Ende des 18 Jahrhunders", Leipzig 1890

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;


Last edited by Ushio Kawana on Thu 23 Jul, 2009 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jul, 2009 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Al Muckart wrote:
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
Walking in a properly made and fit pair would probably feel very comfortable--like walking barefoot but with protection from thorns, etc.


Quite true, especially for people like me who are used to walking barefoot. For us, thin-soled historical shoes are something of a relief from the thicker and more constrictive soles of modern footwear!


This style of shoe wasn't necessarily thin-soled at all. By the 16th century when this style was prevalent shoes were routinely made with double layer soles and much thicker outsoles than earlier-period turnshoes that were common from the early middle ages until the late 15th century. By the late 16th century (1590s) shoes were being made with low stacked heels as well and all of the elements of the fundamentally modern shoe with the exception of the shank were in place.


Yep--there are surviving examples with thick soles and also ample artistic evidence of very thin types that appear to be made of a piece with the hose (and everything in-between). Variations on a theme, I guess.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jul, 2009 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The shoes shown here appear to be somewhere between the extremes--no heel or significant sole, but substantial enough that they are secured by a strap rather than made of a piece with the hose.


 Attachment: 34.68 KB
download-3.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Adam S.





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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jul, 2009 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:

What are you called historically? Question
Why did these sabatons become such a shape? Question


Hi Ushio,

I do not know what the name of the pointed sabatons would be, but they are based on a form of THIS shoe. These shoes are named "poulaines."

~Adam
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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul, 2009 12:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

Sean Flynt wrote:
Yep--there are surviving examples with thick soles and also ample artistic evidence of very thin types that appear to be made of a piece with the hose (and everything in-between). Variations on a theme, I guess.


The thin, single-soled, shoes of the 16th were probably indoor shoes. I'm not sure about leather soled hose, you definetly see them in iconography, but I've only seen them worn without shoes in 15th century contexts predating the widespread adoption of paved streets in cities and heavier, double-soled shoes.

Very generally, shoes made with double-layered soles from the outset appear in Germany in the 1480s, and by the 1530s had become quite widespread. By the end of the 16th century they were pretty much the norm in continental Europe.

--
Al.
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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

Sean Flynt wrote:
The shoes shown here appear to be somewhere between the extremes--no heel or significant sole, but substantial enough that they are secured by a strap rather than made of a piece with the hose.


Can you give us the details of the picture? It looks like a rendition of the beheading of John the Baptist, and I'd guess it as late 15th / early 16th century based on the style of the shoes and clothes.

There's no heel on this style of shoe - noticeable heels don't show up until the very, very late 16th century, but they were almost certainly build with double-layered soles.

You're right that those are somewhere in between. As with clothes the development of footwear technology and style wasn't sudden, there was a progression from lightly built turned shoes, to more heavily built turned shoes, to welted turned shoes, to right-side out welted shoes and from there heels then shanks at which point you have a fundamentally modern shoe.

Anyway, back to those shoes they're probably built much like this pair of 1530s-ish reproductions I did last year.

--
Al.
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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul, 2009 12:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Ushio,

Ushio Kawana wrote:

But I don't know about "pointed sabaton" is called historically? Question

What are you called historically? Question


I don't know what they were called historically, but I would guess that they called them "sabatons", or whatever the equivalent was in their local language.

While we have specific names for different styles of shoes we tend to call shoes "shoes" pretty much irrespective of the style.

Quote:

Why did these sabatons become such a shape? Question


Fashion. It's worth remembering with those particular ones that they go with an armour built for one of the richest and most powerful men in Europe at the time and the style of the armour reflected that. Those could well be the armour equivalent of $20,000 custom-made cowboy boots. Expensive outrageous expressions of wealth and craftsmanship that normal people didn't wear.

Quote:


Quote:
Sabatons' shape evolution by Wendelin Boeheim:
а) 1290-1390. b) 1300-1490. с) 1500-1530. d) 1530-1540. е) 1540-1550. f) 1550-1560. g) 1560-1590.
from book of Wendelin Boeheim "Handbuch der Waffenkunde. Das Waffenwesen in seiner historischen Entwicklung vom Beginn des Mittelalters bis zum Ende des 18 Jahrhunders", Leipzig 1890


Those outlines are a bit rough, but they broadly reflect the style of shoes through the period. Of course the periods they represent are very long and there are I'm a medieval shoe nerd so I have a bit of a better feeling for the development of styles and sole shapes through the period. I think the long point on the outline marked "b" is too long to be representative of normal shoes of the period.

I hope that helps a bit.

--
Al.
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