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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject: How does the knight convey surrender?         Reply with quote

Hi Happy

It is a simple question, but my English is poor... Sad
When a knight is going to surrender, what should he do? Question

Please teach a method to convey surrender into by a voice. What should he say?
Does he shout with "I surrender" or "Mercy"?
Are there "the words of the surrender" that are famous for the history of the medieval Ages?

Please teach a method to convey surrender into by action/gesture.
Does he throw away a sword/dagger?
Does he raise both hands highly?
Does he kneel?
Are there "the gesture of the surrender" that are famous for the history of the medieval Ages?

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Apparently, yelling "RANSOM" at the top of ones lungs was sometimes used if you looked rich enough for it to be plausible
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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 4:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In a dueling type situation, you might say: "I am satisfied, sir...", which essentially means you quit - equavalent to hitting the mat three times.
J.E. Sarge
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"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Happy

Quote:
Nat Lamb wrote:
Apparently, yelling "RANSOM" at the top of ones lungs was sometimes used if you looked rich enough for it to be plausible


Quote:
JE Sarge wrote:
In a dueling type situation, you might say: "I am satisfied, sir...", which essentially means you quit - equavalent to hitting the mat three times.


Thanks Happy

I have another question...
When an enemy refused it after a knight cried with "RANSOM".
In chivalry, can the knight counterattack it again? Question
or
In chivalry, does the knight admit that himself is murdered? (The knight do not resist...) Question

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Nathan Gilleland





Joined: 25 Apr 2008

Posts: 199

PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Without any historical evidence, but answering with my opinion, I would say that he could counterattack and continue fighting. But I suppose it is possible (The Battle of Agincourt comes to mind, where Henry V had numerous French knights killed after they surrendered.)

Any other thoughts or sources on this? I too am interested.

If there are any other "surrendering phrases", I would be interested to know those as well. Happy

Seek Honor before Wealth,
Truth before Honor,
God Before all
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Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
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Posts: 629

PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I always assumed they'd just cry: "Hold! I surrender!" or something like that.
The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 2:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In viking age/medevial scandinavia, the word was "Grid", meaning roughly the same as honourable surender. This could be offered or asked, and was used quite commonly.
In english, "Quarter" would have roughly the same meaning, or "Pardon" in English OR french. However, I am not certian what was used.

In any case, there is a differnece between an honorable surender and giving up. You ask for quarter while still on your feet, but when further fighting is pointless.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject: French expressions         Reply with quote

Elling,
pardon, in french, has more the meaning of forgiveness and not surrender....Quarter in english, as in Give no Quarter (leave none alive) is '' Pas de QUARTIER! '', so the english quarter most probably comes from the french, or at least the same root word. A person begging to live could cry out '' Quartier!!..''.
The other common word to both french and english is MERCI (french), MERCY (english), and again a person surrendering could make such a request in the hope that he would survive the day.
The french chronicler Froissart writes about Crécy :'' Nul n'était pris à rançon ni à merci''. This would translate as: None were taken for ransom and none received mercy ( or none were allowed to surrender) (or none were taken alive)...
Eustache de Ribaumont, a renowned knight, surrendered to the king of England adressing him as ''Sir Knight'' (''Chevalier, je me rends votre prisonnier.'') Which is quite simply I surrender myself to you as your prisoner.....and the king, a real fan of Eustache's , let him go a couple of days later. The king even gave him some money for the road home, but held on to some twenty other french prisoners of rank whom he brought back with him to England, awaiting the proper ransom...
So as the English nobles still spoke the same language as the norther french nobles at that time, I would surmise that the cries from a man wishing to surrender in the midst of a bloody battle would be something like '' Merci!Merci!...Quartier! Rançon! '' in a fairly loud voice, while adopting a submissive attitude such as offering up his sword on bended knee....''Je me rends! ''( I surrender) would also do the trick...,it is just so modern that one doesn't associate it to medieval speech, but from Froissart's text, one can see that they spoke a lot like us...only in a more formal class conscient tone, with proper syntax..JC

Bon coeur et bon bras
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Hendrik De Coster




Location: Belgium
Joined: 20 Jan 2007

Posts: 115

PostPosted: Fri 10 Jul, 2009 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.murtenpanorama.ch/spezial/zoomify/index_en.php
check the zoom view, you can clearly see who surrenders;)
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Percival Koehl




Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 05 Jun 2009

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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jul, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: French expressions         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
Hi Happy

It is a simple question, but my English is poor... Sad


Hey, don't worry. I can understand you perfectly fine. Happy


Jean-Carle Hudon wrote:
The other common word to both french and english is MERCI (french), MERCY (english), and again a person surrendering could make such a request in the hope that he would survive the day.


Yes, that is a good one. In Middle English, gramercy, a corruption of Middle French grand mercy, was also in use, although it could simply mean 'thank you very much'. Even so, in chivalric romances, especially Sir Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, gramercy often appears in dialogue after a knight has yielded to an opponent, and the opponent has granted him mercy.


Another way, I suppose, that someone might signify surrender is by raising his/her arms (after discarding any weapons), with the palms facing an adversary. In most Western cultures, to my knowledge, that has come to mean that the person is not immediately armed and does not mean to strike. In contrast, a person who does not expose his/her palms might be readying a concealed weapon.

I remember also reading about an incident in the life of (or rather at the end of the life of) the prodigy James Crichton (1560-1582), also known by his epithet, 'the Admirable Scot': Crichton surrendered to an attacker, Vincenzo Gonzaga, by kneeling and presenting his sword, hilt first, to Gonzaga. Crichton did this because he was then in the service of Gonzaga's father, the duke of Mantua, and to attack the duke's son would undoubtedly be seen as treason and/or perfidy on his part, even though Gonzaga and a band of followers attacked Crichton. Crichton's surrender, however, did him no good, as Gonzaga hated Crichton so much that he stabbed Crichton fatally anyhow. This may not necessarily be what actually happened, as Crichton's life was reported largely by Sir Thomas Urquhart in the middle of the seventeenth century, who almost certainly exaggerated some of Crichton's achievements (though Crichton probably was very impressive, regardless). Even if Urquhart contrived this detail, however, it may reflect an actual practice or convention from chivalry and/or the code of conduct expected of a renaissance courtier.

'A knight indifferent to a lady's honour has lost his own.'
-Chrétien de Troyes (fl. 1180), Percival or the Tale of the Grail
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri 10 Jul, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for all of you! Happy Happy Happy
Now, I translate your replies into Japanese and read. (It takes too long time Cry )

Thanks Mr. Hendrik De Coster Happy
Quote:
http://www.murtenpanorama.ch/spezial/zoomify/index_en.php
check the zoom view, you can clearly see who surrenders;)

It's very interesting!!! Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud (but I cannot find it...)

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Hendrik De Coster




Location: Belgium
Joined: 20 Jan 2007

Posts: 115

PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
Thank you for all of you! Happy Happy Happy
Now, I translate your replies into Japanese and read. (It takes too long time Cry )

Thanks Mr. Hendrik De Coster Happy
Quote:
http://www.murtenpanorama.ch/spezial/zoomify/index_en.php
check the zoom view, you can clearly see who surrenders;)

It's very interesting!!! Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud (but I cannot find it...)


oh well, go to the far right corner where there's a red banner with a yellow line on it and a black bear on it, in front of those swiss there are some pikemen surrendering
if you click for the hotspots there's one which shows the count of marle, begging for his live (he's in a golden suit)
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hendrik De Coster wrote:

to the far right corner where there's a red banner with a yellow line on it and a black bear on it, in front of those swiss there are some pikemen surrendering
if you click for the hotspots there's one which shows the count of marle, begging for his live (he's in a golden suit)


Its off topic, but interesting.... Some of the kettle hats on those soldiers in this area look like earlier styles of cloth hats (hat of justice/ cap of maintenance or something similar if I can remember the translation) worn by kings. I had not realized that shape of head piece had been made into armour for battle. I don't remember seeing any in museum photos.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2009 9:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, "surrender" comes from the French "sur rendre" or "to give up". The French for "I surrender!" is "Je me rend!", "I give myself". But of course I imagine they would also say things like: Pitie! (pity), quartier! (quarter) or Parole! French was the language of court and most European nobility spoke it.

Most images I've seen of knights yielding shows them on one or both knees with arms held out, either in front or tot he sides, and palms open and empty.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed 15 Jul, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for all of your replies! Happy

I watcked at the scene of the knight to surrender to by a movie named "Ivanhoe(1982)".

Ivanhoe (1982) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084157/
Ivanhoe: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanhoe
----------
Scene: De Bracy is defeated by Black knight....
Characters: Black knight(= King Richard), De Bracy: A Norman knight.

Black knight: Yield! Evil
De Bracy: I will not Yield to unknown. Tell me your name. Mad
***Black knight whispers it to De Bracy***
De Bracy: I yield! Eek! WTF?!
----------
capture images: http://zeruge.hp.infoseek.co.jp//images/ivanhoe_yield.jpg

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 5:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
Hendrik De Coster wrote:

to the far right corner where there's a red banner with a yellow line on it and a black bear on it, in front of those swiss there are some pikemen surrendering
if you click for the hotspots there's one which shows the count of marle, begging for his live (he's in a golden suit)


Its off topic, but interesting.... Some of the kettle hats on those soldiers in this area look like earlier styles of cloth hats (hat of justice/ cap of maintenance or something similar if I can remember the translation) worn by kings. I had not realized that shape of head piece had been made into armour for battle. I don't remember seeing any in museum photos.


Thats because the painting isnt a period piece , look whats written on the mainpage :

"The Panorama of the Battle of Murten measures approximately 10 x 100 metres. The painting itself was created over a period of ten months in 1893 by Louis Braun, Germany’s most renowned painter of panoramas, and his team. "

Sorry for OT
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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Location: upstate NY
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I note that no one has yet said anything about the custom of a warrior who yields to another, of giving up one of his gauntlets in token of surrender. I have run across many instances of this in my historical reading.
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James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sirs-I agree with Mr Gillaspe. I can think of many situations where it would be safest ( at least in a melee) to stay on your feet and hold out your glove.
Ja68ms
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 4:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mr. James Arlen Gillaspie Happy
Quote:
the custom of a warrior who yields to another, of giving up one of his gauntlets in token of surrender.

Thanks... However, I cannot translate it well... I cannot imagine the scene.... Sad
(Of course it is a thing by the lack of my English comprehension.)
What would the knight do to one of his gauntlets?
Please give me some specific examples.

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;


Last edited by Ushio Kawana on Thu 16 Jul, 2009 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Jul, 2009 11:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sir he would eheathe his sword,pull off his right gauntlet, and hand it to the knighr he was surrendering to.
Ja68ms
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