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Larry Lim




Location: Tiny RED Dot
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 10:14 am    Post subject: Seeking Advice on Scabbard Problem         Reply with quote

Hi,

My hanwei Tuger katana's blade develops rust within days of sheathing it into its scabbard; even after I cleaned the blade, rust re-develops after sheathing it Sad

Any advice on how to clean the inside of my Tiger katana scabbard?

Thanks in advance..
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Jonathan Atkin





Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What is your scabbard made of what type of wood?
"If I must choose between righteousness and peace, I choose righteousness''. - Theodore Roosevelt
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Larry Lim




Location: Tiny RED Dot
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Tiger Scabbard Problem         Reply with quote

Jonathan Atkin wrote:
What is your scabbard made of what type of wood?


I've no idea.. But it was without any problem in the beginning. In fact, the Tiger katana was stored away in it's scabbard and in its original shipping box, and place (upright) in a corner of the same room.

I took it out to clean, re-oil & re-sheath it and stored it away again once a while, and there was no problem. Then I started displaying the sword on a shogun style floor stand, did the same procedure, no problem. Then I overlook the sword for 3 weeks and the rust strikes me Sad Now, even if I leave it in for 3 days, rust will start developing Sad
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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Larry,

I am afraid that you will need to split the saya (scabbard) an clean it out with a chisel or scraper (not sandpaper) your saya must have developed a contamination at some point - assuming that the rust still occurs in the same area.

It may be easier to send the saya to a restorer in your area or back to your place of purchase.

You could possibly try a rifle cleaner with alcohol or even a swab with alcohol on the end of a wire coat hanger but you wouldn't want the swab to get stuck in the saya.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Cheers

Jason
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Before I split the saya, I'd try pouring it full of boiled linseed oil, let it sit for a few minutes, then pour it out. Let it sit upside down on a towel overnight then see what happens when you try storing the sword in it.
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JE Sarge wrote:
Before I split the saya, I'd try pouring it full of boiled linseed oil, let it sit for a few minutes, then pour it out. Let it sit upside down on a towel overnight then see what happens when you try storing the sword in it.


Please no no no, not with a Japanese style sword. THis will make the matter much worse as moisture will build up.
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Jonathan Atkin





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PostPosted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 9:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Would CLP break loose work for this situation? It works for me and my albion agincourt but since I alteast know oriental weapons are far different in care to european styled ones.
"If I must choose between righteousness and peace, I choose righteousness''. - Theodore Roosevelt
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Larry Lim




Location: Tiny RED Dot
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
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Reading list: 16 books

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re         Reply with quote

I certainly wouldn't want to split the Tiger scabbard because its construction is quite different from conventional katana saya - it has copper/brass mouth piece, metal butt-cap, and copper inlaid work on the body underneath thick coat of lacquer. I wouldn't be able to put all these back if I split the scabbard.

I tried cleaning the interior using rifle cleaning rod with a piece of WD40-soaked cloth attached, but I can't seem to reach the tip of the scabbard where the blade kissaki should be. That portion seems too narrow for my rifle cleaning rod to reach Sad

Any more input, dear fellow sword enthusiasts?? If none, then I may adapt some of your suggestion by spray-soaking WD40 into the scabbard instead, but before I do that, can anyone confirm that this will not further harm the scabbard's wood? That's the least I want to do, man :"(

Thanks in advance..
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 3:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J Anstey wrote:
JE Sarge wrote:
Before I split the saya, I'd try pouring it full of boiled linseed oil, let it sit for a few minutes, then pour it out. Let it sit upside down on a towel overnight then see what happens when you try storing the sword in it.


Please no no no, not with a Japanese style sword. THis will make the matter much worse as moisture will build up.


Could you explain why the boiled linseed oil does not harm my European swords/scabbards but would harm an Asian blade? I am interested in know what the difference is!

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 3:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The wood normally used in a Japanese sword is Honoki which is a magnolia type wood, very little sap and porous enough to take a bit of moisture away from the blade.

Hearing what the OP has already done it is probably no issue to try anything.

An oil finished interior with a flush/tight fit on the the mouth (koiguchi) is going to create an area where air (with moisture) is going to be trapped which will create a great environment for moisture to create oxidisation.

There is much more to the science of the japanese saya but one thing to add is that a good saya is normally joined with rice glue to allow for splitting and cleaning - obviously the buffalo horn mouth (or copper in this case) needs to be removed prior to splitting. This is seldom needed with correct use and care. Re-lacquering will need to be done afterwards.

One of the main causes of this contamination is over oiling and or shavings being trapped at the bottom of the saya - as this is where the problem is occurring I would hazard a guess that this might be an issue or cause.

Excess oil may also cause the wood to swell which is not ideal for a Japanese style sword.

In regard to your questions regarding European swords - I simply don't know. Maybe the lanolin in lambs wool protects this somewhat??? Maybe there is not so much of an airtight encapsulation that will trap moisture.

In any case I am simply trying to help the OP with information from the area that I know a little bit about. It is always best to ask and look at options prior to doing anything drastic.

Cheers

Jason

PS Maybe Gabriel will chime in here???
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 5:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for explaining that. You learn something new everyday! Big Grin
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

... no probs, we're all mates here Happy
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I did pour some rubbing alcohol in a scabbard " ONCE " to try to clean it out: Worked eventually as the stored knife hasn't rusted at all even after being in the scabbard for years at a time.

This knife showed some rust at the tip before the cleaning and would re-rust at the tip, but now the problem is fixed.

One " BIG PROBLEM " though is that it took for ever for the scabbard's inside to really dry and I would still have gunk on the point when I would pull the knife out for the longest time as well as wet rubbing alcohol ????

Go figure: I thought the rubbing alcohol would evaporate quickly, but it seemed to not do so for a very long time.

Anyway, is there a good way to clean the inside of a scabbard if one gets gunk or water into a scabbard ? If there is a simple and good way I sure would like to know ! There are probably many more imaginative way to screw it up that doing it right. Wink Laughing Out Loud

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Larry Lim




Location: Tiny RED Dot
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Posts: 158

PostPosted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re:         Reply with quote

I do not have CLP Breakfree, Linseed Oil or Rubbing Alcohol for me to pour into the scabbard to attempt to flush out/clean rust in its interior, so can I use WD40 or 3-in-1 as the likely replacement?? Are these properties similar?
Sorry, I need to clarify because I've not handle CLP, Linseed Oil or Rubbing Alcohol before.
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J Anstey





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PostPosted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 5:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

... if I were you, I would store the sword out of the saya for a couple of months and don't do anything to it. See if it will dry out enough for you to tap out the contaminates or at least stabilise it. Make a cardboard cover for the blade and inspect and oil the blade regularly.

THe only thing you might try is the Alcohol rinsing. You will be able to buy this cheaply at a Pharmacy.
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Larry Lim




Location: Tiny RED Dot
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Posts: 158

PostPosted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re:         Reply with quote

J Anstey wrote:
... if I were you, I would store the sword out of the saya for a couple of months and don't do anything to it. See if it will dry out enough for you to tap out the contaminates or at least stabilise it. Make a cardboard cover for the blade and inspect and oil the blade regularly.

THe only thing you might try is the Alcohol rinsing. You will be able to buy this cheaply at a Pharmacy.


That was what I had done - leaving the blade unsheathed for a month; but when I re-sheathed the blade and inspect it just after 3 days, thin brown rust already formed on about 30% of blade surface, including the mune (spine), kissaki area, and shinogi-ji (blade flat) Sad Very shocking & sad.. thus this urgent posting of this thread to solicit probable remedies..

N/B: I've also tried writing to Hanwwei to inquire if they do scabbard maint. for their products, no news so far..
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J Anstey





Joined: 21 Jul 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

,,, It is a bad situation and really should not happen or occur- I would persist with Hanwei or the retailer you purchased from before taking any extreme measures.

One other suggestion is to again leave it to dry out and then get a can of high pressure air to try and blow out any debris.
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Peter Remling





Joined: 28 May 2004

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon 29 Jun, 2009 7:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Larry check your gun cleaning kit, to see if the rods are hollow or solid. If they are hollow take a plastic or metal funnel, tape it over the end of a portable vacuum cleaner. Tape your hollow cleaning rods to the small end of the funnel and turn it on. You will want to ensure the suction isn't so great that it will collaspe the rods. This is the reason you want to use a light weight smaller vacuum.

Now insert the rods into your saya and gently vacuum the insides.

You can't get stuff out of a tight space by putting more stuff in. The metal rods can gently scrape any gunk inside while the vacuum removes it.
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Larry Lim




Location: Tiny RED Dot
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Reading list: 16 books

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2009 1:17 am    Post subject: Re:         Reply with quote

Hi Pete, how are you doing? Good to see you around Happy

My rifle cleaning rods are the solid iron type, unfortunately.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2009 9:08 am    Post subject: Re:         Reply with quote

Larry Lim wrote:
Hi Pete, how are you doing? Good to see you around Happy

My rifle cleaning rods are the solid iron type, unfortunately.


A straitened coat hanger with a small hook at the end can be use to fish out small bits of junk from the bottom of a scabbard and to check if the end comes out wet or covered with gunk or not.

Fishing away at the bottom could remove some liquid gunk a few molecules at a time and maybe one can add a small piece of cloth at the end to wipe and clean. ( Care taken that this bit doesn't fall off the tip and become a " new " piece of additional junk in the scabbard ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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