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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Usage of wagenburgs in late sixteenth century? Reply to topic
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J. Lee





Joined: 07 Aug 2007

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jun, 2009 9:25 pm    Post subject: Usage of wagenburgs in late sixteenth century?         Reply with quote

Until now I though the wagenburgs with small firearms and cannons were virtually 'abolished' after the German Peasants' wagenburgs were devastated by field artillery in 1524~1525

However Lazarus Von Schwendi, who was a commander of Habsburg army during 1560's mentioned that ottomans were using wagenburgs, and Kenneth Chase wrote in his book "Firearms: Global history" that the Austrians also utilized wagenburgs against Ottomans at Mezo-Keresztes, 1596. Are these truly the 'wagon-forts' similar to those of Hussites, or just field gun carriages linked together with chains?
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 2:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's true that the war wagon never became a primary battlefield device again after the Peasants' Revolt, or even earlier after improved artillery and military organization gave Central European princes a way to deal with Bohemian tabors and their imitators. However, the tabor/wagenburg remained quite important for the protection of armies in camp and on the march well into the 17th and probably even the 18th century. The Wikipedia page links to some pictures of the better-known examples of these latter-day war wagons--the Jost Amman picture in particular is worth a look, though it's a bit big.
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Daniel Staberg




Location: Gothenburg/Sweden
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Jul, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The wagenburgs used by the Peasant armies in Germany were improvised affairs which were often poorly equiped with both artillery and infantry firarms and the skill of the men using them were often even more limited. Combined with the low overall efficiency and cohesion of the peasant troops this meant that the wagenburgs were often defeated before the first shot was fired. Indeed several wagenburgs were shattered by mounted troops who broke through the defences.

In Eastern Europe modified versions of the wagenburg continued to be tacticaly usefull well into the 17th Century. The Polish army was famous for the skill with which it could deploy it's 'tabor' wagons either as a complte wageburg defended byt infantry and artillery as at Obertyn 1531 or as a partial wagenburg at Kamieniec 1634 were the tabor protected the flanks and the rear of Koniecpolski's army. Similar use of wagenburgs to protect the rear or flank of an army appear in the Imperial and Swedish armies as well.

At Mezo-Keresztes 1596 the Imperial army fought from regular earthworks in the first day of the battle, any wagons would have been deployed to the rear and flanks if used. On the 2nd day which saw the main engagement between the two armies the Imperial army fought in the open.


Last edited by Daniel Staberg on Mon 20 Jul, 2009 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jul, 2009 1:52 am    Post subject: "Turkish tabor"         Reply with quote

I also remember reading somewhere about Ottomans adapting and using the "tabor/wagenburg " tactics( which they probably encountered during the wars with Janos Hunyady and later his son Matthias Corvinus , who made use of such tactics). Are there any sources/links which would shed more light on that Ottoman version of "war-fort" Question
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jul, 2009 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ottoman taburs? The first thing that came to my mind was Matt Haywood's tantalizing note here:

http://www.warfareeast.co.uk/main/Warwagons.htm#Ottoman%20tabors

Let me see if I can find any more detailed sources.
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Lukasz Papaj




Location: Malbork, Poland
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PostPosted: Mon 20 Jul, 2009 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually (Free)Cossacks used tabors extensively during uprisings in second quarter of XVII century, and if I recall correctly the tabors of 1633-34 from Daniel Staberg's post were manned by "Registered" Cossacks (that is ones on payroll of Rzeczypospolita). There is a depiction of Cossack "tabor" in wikipedia -> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Taborkozacki.jpg
Cossack tabors were often deployed on a field mixed with light earthen fortifications. They were similar to ones used by Polish and Ottoman forces, yet Cossacks emphasised usage of infantry firepower, as they had relatively poor cavalry, at least comparing to neighbouring powers, or so I was taught. Nevertheless that did not stopped them from being quite a headache for both Poles and Turks .
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

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PostPosted: Tue 21 Jul, 2009 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Ottoman taburs? The first thing that came to my mind was Matt Haywood's tantalizing note here:

http://www.warfareeast.co.uk/main/Warwagons.htm#Ottoman%20tabors

Let me see if I can find any more detailed sources.


Thank you Lafayette , if you could dig up something else as well I would appreciate it. Happy
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