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Florian C. R. Roski





Joined: 21 Jan 2009

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 12 Jun, 2009 2:22 am    Post subject: Data on Atlatl         Reply with quote

I read about atlatl compared to other weapons. But how can you do that without hard facts.
I would like to collect facts about atlatl. Only then would a discussion about its merits make sense.

Dit anyone mesure how far he could trow a dart of given weight and at what speed?
Dit anyone mesure penetration on a given target?
How many darts a man can carry around?
What type of point do you put on your dart?
And many more facts please.
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Arne Focke
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Location: near Munich, Germany
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 12 Jun, 2009 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Data on Atlatl         Reply with quote

Florian C. R. Roski wrote:
I read about atlatl compared to other weapons. But how can you do that without hard facts.
I would like to collect facts about atlatl. Only then would a discussion about its merits make sense.
Dit anyone mesure how far he could trow a dart of given weight and at what speed?


This information should be easy enough to find on the net, since the atlatl is quite popular again.
I would try contacting Harm Paulsen over Schloß Gottorf in Schleswig/Germany (http://www.schloss-gottorf.de/kontakt.php). He is the best atlatl builder i know and uses them frequently.
Or you might try these guys: http://www.worldatlatl.org/

Florian C. R. Roski wrote:

Dit anyone mesure penetration on a given target?


Harm Paulsen did some serious testing on deer. I don't have the data at hand, sorry.

Florian C. R. Roski wrote:

How many darts a man can carry around?


How big is your hand? Wink
Seriously, i wouldn't carry more than two or three, otherwise they might get in the way, especially if you favor an overly long version.

Florian C. R. Roski wrote:

What type of point do you put on your dart?


Flint or bone, material and shape depending on the target.
I tried steel arrowheads once, just for the fun of it.

So schön und inhaltsreich der Beruf eines Archäologen ist, so hart ist auch seine Arbeit, die keinen Achtstundentag kennt! (Wolfgang Kimmig in: Die Heuneburg an der oberen Donau, Stuttgart 1983)
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Florian C. R. Roski





Joined: 21 Jan 2009

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I came across a website http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm witch had interesting information about Atlatl.
I hate Imperial Units! Mad
I have some comments about it.
First of all i am not sure that the diameter is correct.
Witch could leads to errors in sectional density.
Second Effective range seems to be influenced by reactiontime.
The effective range of most weapons is such that a soldier has no or barely time to duck.
Does anyone have a rough way to calculate penetration?
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Joel Minturn





Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 232

PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That was an interesting site. The diameters for the arrows and darts looked to be all right, thought the weights may be a little off. That is more of a guess than anything else.

There really is not any easy way to compute penetration. There are too many variables that are difficult to impossible to determine. Target composition is a big one, nose shape (blunt, cutting edges) is another issue. And not everyone agrees that the same variables are important.

One thing I realized the article did not cover at all is type of point used. Penetration is very different for the same arrow with different points. broad head versus field points versus blunts even if they all have the same largest diameter. Arrows with broad heads cut through the target while a bullet tears through a target. That may be another reason why an arrow will cut through a bucket of sand while a bullet is stopped. (other testing has shown that high velocity rifle rounds like the 30-06 are stopped quicker in a bucket of sand than slower moving pistol rounds even though the pistol bullet had lower sectional density)
To sum it up. Terminal ballistics (penetration and related stuff) is an often misunderstood black art that can be a good way to get into a long debate over minutia.

effective range is usally defined as the range were the projectile is both accurate and effective. reaction time doesn't really figure into it mostly because target reaction time changes and depends on the skill of the user to lead or predict the target and its just easier to a say something has an effective range based on a ideal target standing still on a calm day. And yes the effective range may be less than the killing range.
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J. Johansson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 07 Jun 2009

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun, 2009 2:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow I must get me one of those. Really impressive weapons ... and they say humans were primitive in prehistory. Razz
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jun, 2009 1:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Florian C R Roski wrote The effective range of most weapons is such that a soldier has no or barely time to duck.


Just for fun and usually after a beer or two I and some of my friends do irresponsible things with bows. At about 25yds/22meters you are perfectly capable of stepping out of the way of a (blunt) arrow shot from a 70lb bow and at 30yds/27m there is not a problem at all.

It gets really interesting when two people shoot at you, because you simply cannot track both arrows coming in and you either have to focus on one and ignore the other, freeze like a rabbit or hit the deck.. Basically a single atlatl dart thrown at 20+ yds would not be a significant threat to somebody who was watching the thrower and you could easily duck/dodge. Two throwers and the threat would be massive.

Legal bit ' I do not suggest you try this or condone this in any way as it is dangerous - clearly'

Tod

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