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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Mon 11 May, 2009 3:59 am    Post subject: Strange "table knife" in the Maciejowski bible         Reply with quote



In the center man's left hand. Never seen one like that before, and I don't think I've spotted one like it in other sources. Do we have any surviving examples of that kind of knife? It reminds me a bit of the chopper's you see in the hands of soldiers later on in that book, so I figure it's probably some kind of butchering knife.

M.

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 11 May, 2009 5:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe the book Knives and Scabbards speculates they are fish knives or something similar. Or maybe it was bread knives. I don't have the book handy at the moment.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 11 May, 2009 5:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
I believe the book Knives and Scabbards speculates they are fish knives or something similar. Or maybe it was bread knives. I don't have the book handy at the moment.


Cheese knives have some form or hook to move the cheese I guess, but the profile of that knife does look a lot like the profile of the giant chopper ! maybe giant versions of common knives inspired the makers of the huge choppers.

Somewhat bigger " Cheese Cutting ". ( OOOOPS, smelly, cheesy PUN alert. Razz ).

Joking aside still a good question/observation by M.


( Note: I'm French Canadian so smelly cheese is part of the culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oka_cheese ).

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 11 May, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Joking aside still a good question/observation by M.


It is a good observation. Happy I made the same one in this thread May 1st:

Quote:
Most falchions seem to have been actual weapons of war. The choppers may be more related to some general purpose knives. Some of the splayed tips on them resemble the tips on knives used for cleaning fish.


The book Knives and Scabbards has a few illustrations of similar knives, but I don't remember seeing any surviving knives shaped like that in the catalogue in that book.

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Peter Dietl




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PostPosted: Mon 11 May, 2009 6:27 am    Post subject: strange knife         Reply with quote

I think, itīs a knife to cut meat in small stripes and serve it right away to the guests, the man with the knife could be that, what we call "Truchsess" in German, a high recommended job at the table. He does the main work of cutting and serving.
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Dan Dickinson
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PostPosted: Mon 11 May, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As Chad said, Knives and Scabbards does have several depictions from period artwork and calls them "fish knives", but in all shown depictions they appear to be shown cutting bread/cheese. One depiction from Gregory's Moralia, Paris, shows the same shape as that from the Mac Bible, but with a prominent U shaped notch in the edge near the "tip". The book also states than no know archaeological examples exist.
I hope this helps,
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Mon 11 May, 2009 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hm, I will have to hunt up a copy of that book sometime; Out of Print however :|

Perhaps by "fish knife" they're making a reference to the shape, which looks like a fish's tail?

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 11 May, 2009 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
Hm, I will have to hunt up a copy of that book sometime; Out of Print however :|

Perhaps by "fish knife" they're making a reference to the shape, which looks like a fish's tail?

M.


There's a new paperback edition. I just bought one a couple of months back: http://www.amazon.com/Knives-Scabbards-Mediev...ef=ed_oe_p

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Michael Pearce
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PostPosted: Wed 13 May, 2009 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We're on the right track... I believe that this is a sort of knife called a 'chaffer,' used as a combination slicing knife and 'spatula' for serving the food. Never seen one quite this shape though.
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Danny Grigg





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PostPosted: Tue 19 May, 2009 11:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I came across this replica by Manning Imperial:

http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_...mp;c_id=15

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Jason Daub




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PostPosted: Wed 20 May, 2009 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In every illustration that I have seen of this type of knife it is being used to cut bread, if I recall correctly the "Goodman of Paris" (it could be "Kervinge" or "Ffor to serve a Lord") recommends that slices of bread should be served out with the knife. It is just my opinion, but this knife shape would be admirably suited for use as a serving tool.
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Boyd C-F




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PostPosted: Wed 20 May, 2009 10:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

so would it resemble a sharpened spatula? uniform x-section perhaps?

It looks quite handy for use on the BBQ...
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