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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 24 Apr, 2009 3:15 pm    Post subject: Good Grief, sword I.D. please!         Reply with quote

I need a sword I.D.'d for a "friend". He is not convinced that it is a late 19th century/first world war german military sword. Even though it has Kaiser Wilhelm mark and the year 92 on the forte's spine. Can someone concur and send pics? Because he says "without a picture it is just conjecture" (He's that way) It looks to me like a Prussian Infantry Officer Sword. Sheesh


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inkothemgard!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,930

PostPosted: Fri 24 Apr, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about a picture of the whole sword and another profile of the hilt?

That could be a last of the Wundes mark era but I've not looked closely at the mark. Can you enlarge that as well?

Cheers

GC
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 24 Apr, 2009 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've already requested a complete sword pic and a complete hilt pic. but that is a Kaiser Wilhelm mark circa 1882, correct?

Here is the only other pic he had. Hopefully he'll send more.



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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Apr, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That woud be 1882, you are correct. The mark would be a shield with a crown. A Z in the shield.

Cheers

Glen

thought I saw a crown
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 24 Apr, 2009 4:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is it German. The crown and K is for kaiser wilhelm, yes?
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 24 Apr, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Morgan,
Is the fellow thinking it is earlier?

Jonathan
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Joseph P. Timperio




Location: N.E. USA
Joined: 23 Apr 2009

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 5:36 am    Post subject: Identify this sword         Reply with quote

Hi-
Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Joseph P. Timperio. This is my sword. It was my Great Grandfather's sword; He was in the Italian Infantry. I have been handling, collecting, and wielding swords for over twenty years. Mr Butler and I have been exchanging e-mails furiously about this sword. The earlier poster had mentioned a shield with 'A Z' inside ; he was comparing this sword with a Prussian Infantry Sword. I can assure you, there is no shield mark, no, AZ.
I would now humbly request Mr. Butler upload his photo of his Spadroon. I will then post more photos of my sword. I don't disagree that the sword was made in Germany; that is plain enough. But it would certainly be plausible for a wealthy Italian Officer (of whatever era) to purchase a blade, hilt, handle, pommel, or scabbard from Solingen. It is not uncommon for a servicable blade to be refit with a new handle, or vice-versa. J. Cristoph Amberger posted a sword on his blog that supports this contention. But if you compare my sword with Mr. Butler's, they are quite similar. Mr.Butler related to me that the makers marks on his sword are somewhat spurious (my word), one letter, either an S or G. But if Mr. Butler is placing his sword in the 1790's, to professionally categorize the date and manufacture, I don't believe there is sufficient evidence.
I have sifted through many website's photos of Prussian Officer's Swords and they look nothing like mine. Moreover, I have looked at hundreds of photos and looked at swords in person that were categorized as spadroons that look nothing like Mr. Butler's sword. And there you have the basis of our conundrum...

"Every war ought to be methodical, because every war ought to be conducted in conformity with the principles and rules of the art and with an object...The favorable opportunity must be siezed, for fortune is female-if you balk her today,you must not expect to meet her tomorrow."
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Joseph P. Timperio




Location: N.E. USA
Joined: 23 Apr 2009

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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 5:41 am    Post subject: Sheesh         Reply with quote

I have just re-read Mr. Butler's original post. The number on the edge is an 8, not a 9.
"Every war ought to be methodical, because every war ought to be conducted in conformity with the principles and rules of the art and with an object...The favorable opportunity must be siezed, for fortune is female-if you balk her today,you must not expect to meet her tomorrow."
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Joseph P. Timperio




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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 6:22 am    Post subject: K for Kaiser Wilhem         Reply with quote

Again, there is no "K" on this mark!? And the number next to the 8; a friend in Europe suggested it might not be a '2' at all. I know that stamped marks don't often come out completely legible, but he has a point. He suggested I go into all the marks with simi chrome polish to get some of the black out of the inside of the mark, but I am reticent to do that...
"Every war ought to be methodical, because every war ought to be conducted in conformity with the principles and rules of the art and with an object...The favorable opportunity must be siezed, for fortune is female-if you balk her today,you must not expect to meet her tomorrow."
-NAPOLEON-
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Terry Crain




Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 6:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can pictures fo the entire sword be posted? It would be helpful to see the blade profile and hilt at issue.
Terry Crain
A/K/A
Donal Grant

Honor, not Honors!
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Joseph P. Timperio




Location: N.E. USA
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 8:12 am    Post subject: More pix         Reply with quote

Certainly. But in all fairness, I only see my photos on this thread. My original queries to Mr. Butler were in comparing his sword to mine. I think Mr. Butler should perform due dilligence in my request for photos on this thread, both of his sword, and whatever marks thereupon..
"Every war ought to be methodical, because every war ought to be conducted in conformity with the principles and rules of the art and with an object...The favorable opportunity must be siezed, for fortune is female-if you balk her today,you must not expect to meet her tomorrow."
-NAPOLEON-
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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
My original queries to Mr. Butler were in comparing his sword to mine. I think Mr. Butler should perform due dilligence in my request for photos on this thread, both of his sword, and whatever marks thereupon..


Why, his swords ID isn't in question yours is, i'm not sure why pics of a sword who's origin is known is going to shead light on an unknown sword that we haven't see a full pic of yet. Maybe after full pics of your blade are avaliable they would then be helpful but otherwise they're just show off pics of an ID'ed sword. The style and possible make of the sword is more easily determined by some pics of the piece overall. While pics of stamps are certainly helpfull some full sword pics of the item in question are necessary.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Joeseph,

Welcome To myArmoury

One of the biggest hurdles is third party information, then followed quickly by presentation. I have a hunch as why Morgan is comparing your great-grandfathers sword and it is easily misread at times (even by my scant knowledge). It looks to me as if your sword is an infantry dress sword of that period. A folding counterguard. A blade ranging up to 33", quite slight in width and with a fuller reaching a good portion of the length.

There is little doubt in my mind that the entire sword was made in Germany by the firm mentioned. As to the mark I reference as a shield under a crown. The shield bears the letter Z.. Not AZ but simply Z. I will defer that such a mark may not be apparent on your example but it would seem to me that both I and others have misread parts of Morgan's communication and that you are also possibly misreading some of the responses.

Morgan's attribution of calling the sword a spadroon is not so crazy but the term in Germany would be degen and I have no idea how an Italian might list it, as I am not well versed in the language. Indeed, there is a great deal I don't know but I can understand an enthusiasm Morgan has for spadroons and that the basic form of the sword in question does go back well into the 18th century. Swords are like that. Basic forms change little in profile and it is small detail that can make a difference. As Morgan may have invited you to join us in discussion, more information is often better than not enough. Having your sharing even a small bit more and a dummy like me looking at the first picture, I have reached my conclusion as to what it is, where it was made and could only help for a little more information for any to be useful to others. Even in my own introspective noticing it has a folding guard and understanding Morgan's enthusiasm.

Welcome again. Take a look at this site, as Morgan could have as well

http://www.oldswords.com/

While the earlier forms of what Morgan is excited about did retain the basic form up into the 20h century, it is often others reading into what one wants to see that can affix blinders securely and trot off in destinations only ancillary to the actual investigations.

Cheers

GC


Last edited by Glen A Cleeton on Sat 25 Apr, 2009 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Norman McCormick





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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
Working from the photographs supplied and my information, Clemen and Jung commenced business 1860. Crown over W over 82, made in 1882 in the reign of Wilhelm 1 of Prussia 1861-1888. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.
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Joseph P. Timperio




Location: N.E. USA
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 12:54 pm    Post subject: More pix         Reply with quote

I'm trying to give more px! It says my attachment is too big. I was only trying to do one picture at a time. Maybe I can e-mail them to someone like I did to Mr. Butler!
"Every war ought to be methodical, because every war ought to be conducted in conformity with the principles and rules of the art and with an object...The favorable opportunity must be siezed, for fortune is female-if you balk her today,you must not expect to meet her tomorrow."
-NAPOLEON-
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: More pix         Reply with quote

Joseph P. Timperio wrote:
I'm trying to give more px! It says my attachment is too big. I was only trying to do one picture at a time. Maybe I can e-mail them to someone like I did to Mr. Butler!


We have an attachment guide in our Info pages. The Attachment guide has basic info on sizing and some basic info on resizing pics.

Each forum has its own limit for size. When posting, you can click on the Allowed Extenstions and File Sizes links for more info. See the attached image.



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Joseph P. Timperio




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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, Chad; I will be reading and re-reading your post many times, I am a much better fencer than I am a chatter, or a blogger, or a downlowder (I don't even like the way that last one sounded). However in brief I have sent Mr. Butler several e-mails with attached pix. That much I can do. I will say this : the original discussion was his calling my Great-Grandfather's sword given to him as Sergeant-Major in the Italian Infantry a Prussian Officer's Sword. In one of his correspondences, he refers to the marks on his sword (not availible yet?), implying it was also from Solingen. In that respect, you could call his sword a Prussian Infantry Sword Style Worn By an English Officer. All of this reminds me of Aldo Nadi saying, " No one cares if you call your counter-of-quarte 'Mae West.' In fencing names mean very little." I never Implied I believed my sword to be anything but my Great-Grandfather's. I was very enthused on the similarity of both swords, and how he comes to knowhis sword's date of manufacture with any certainty with the marks... I keep mentioning the marks. Maybe if he posted the marks we could all learn a little more.
"Every war ought to be methodical, because every war ought to be conducted in conformity with the principles and rules of the art and with an object...The favorable opportunity must be siezed, for fortune is female-if you balk her today,you must not expect to meet her tomorrow."
-NAPOLEON-
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Addison C. de Lisle




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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:

Why, his swords ID isn't in question yours is, i'm not sure why pics of a sword who's origin is known is going to shead light on an unknown sword that we haven't see a full pic of yet.


I'd have to echo this; I don't really understand why pictures of a sword that is irrelevant to the discussion are going to help identify your sword. It seems to me like people have already given you the best answer they can without further pictures of your sword, without the context of any comparison that Mr. Butler may be making between your sword and his, as your initial post seems to imply. For clarity, do you feel Morgan's dating of your sword is incorrect because you think that the dating of one of his swords is incorrect? Is this why you want pictures of Mr. Butler's sword?

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Joseph P. Timperio




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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject: Clarity         Reply with quote

Please, Gentlemen (and ladies if they are present.) Before I spoke- no wait, before I knew Morgan Butler even existed, I was firmly convinced that my Great - Grandfather's sword was manufactured between 1860-1890. I believed it . When I happened on Mr. Butler's pictures, I was intrigued because of their similarity. That's all. He insisted on calling it a Prussian Infantry Sword, I contend it was used in the Italian Infantry. Everyone seems so indignant about having Mr. Butler post pix. It's not like I asked him to cut off his leg. My interest was in comparing the two swords; but Mr Butler had a hissy fit and started insulting me in e-mails. If that's the way you guys converse that's great- But I will not get into a shouting match- and I refuse to lower my verbal skills and resort to vulgar language.
"Every war ought to be methodical, because every war ought to be conducted in conformity with the principles and rules of the art and with an object...The favorable opportunity must be siezed, for fortune is female-if you balk her today,you must not expect to meet her tomorrow."
-NAPOLEON-
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 10:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Enough is enough. We have an expectation that the people who participate on this site act professionally. This bickering and near-personal attacks on each other will stop now. Should you have any questions or comments about this, you are welcome to contact me directly in private.
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