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Timothy Gulics




Location: NJ, US
Joined: 28 Jan 2004

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PostPosted: Mon 24 May, 2004 11:38 pm    Post subject: Respect Goes Both Ways         Reply with quote

I would classify this as a rant, and therefore bound for the Off Topic forum.

Lately, within this and other circles of enthusiasts, I've noticed an interesting if somewhat saddening trend. Collectors seem to be divided into the "old guard" and the "new crowd" with myself falling into the latter category. There also seems to be a friction between the two "groups" that really should not exist, and I am trying to determine why it is there in the first place.

I, as a young American man, will be the first to admit I know very little about collecting. My knowledge is elementary at best - it is enough to wow the non-collector but compared to those who have been doing this for most of their lives it is insignificant. Through myArmoury and SFI alone I have learned a great deal and continue to learn, becoming a better collector and a better person as a result.

However, it is disheartening to see members of the "old guard" treat more youthful collectors with a lack of respect. Some will say "respect goes up the chain, not down" and this is largely true, however to immediately discount a younger collector's point of view simply because of their inexperience is, to me, wrong. I liken it to the following example:

Not very long ago, a friend of mine purchased what would be considered a "wallhanger" sword. He was quite pleased with it, although I could immediately tell it was not the "real" sword that my friend made it out to be. He did not know the difference between his sword and the newer Albion pieces in my collection, and he was very quick to say "they're the same." In fact, he stated his sword could probably break mine. At that, I almost launched into a heated argument of why his swould would never hold a candle to my own and that he was a fool to think so - but I stopped myself. I had an epiphany. I said... I am more knowledgeable than my friend, I know that what he has been taught is not the truth, and I can educate him. I do not need to take a shot at him. I do not need to yell or berate him. I do not have to be snide. I do not have to roll my eyes. I COULD do so, but I am better than that. He is young and I can teach him, and we'll both be better for it.

Now, I apply that to things I have seen lately on the message boards I frequent. Thankfully, I have yet to see this happen on myArmoury, however on SFI it is more prevalent. An exuberant collector will make a statement, perhaps one that is not fully thought out, and a more seasoned enthusiast will take a shot at them for it. There is a lot of backbiting and sniping that does not belong in a group of mature adults. I've seen more and more of it lately and it always makes me cringe, especially when I am on the receiving end. I would normally expect the wizened few to know better than to snap at a "newbie" - just as I looked at my overzealous friend, chuckled, and said "Let's talk about this."

Still, this friction is not the norm and I am glad for that. But when it does happen, it makes me feel very uncomfortable, especially when I and others that are new to this are looking for a place of understanding and patience.

Rant over. I just needed to get that off my chest. I hate being talked down to by someone who feels they are older and more wiser than I. When it happens, I always ask myself... "If this person feels they are so much better than I am, why are they taking a shot at me?" I can never seem to come up with an answer for that one.

The sword is my companion.
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Shawn Duncanson




Location: Spokane Wa
Joined: 05 Dec 2003

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Tue 25 May, 2004 1:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"If this person feels they are so much better than I am, why are they taking a shot at me?" I can never seem to come up with an answer for that one. "

Insecure people need to exalt themselves over others, that is why exclusive little clubs of all sorts are created. If your not "in" you are inferior and though you dont know it those that are "in" do and greatly enjoy thinking this way.

For a great look at this interesting behavior look at C.S. Lewis' short book/essay called "The Inner Ring."

Perhaps I am taking the above quote as a real question rather than one that is not truly be asked but stated and begging the question though but it is still a good read.

Not all who wander are lost.
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Steve Fabert





Joined: 03 Mar 2004
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Posts: 493

PostPosted: Tue 25 May, 2004 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: Respect Goes Both Ways         Reply with quote

Timothy Gulics wrote:

However, it is disheartening to see members of the "old guard" treat more youthful collectors with a lack of respect.


Perhaps some of the overbearing types are not really Old Guard at all, but young people themselves who have limited social skills, who seem more mature at first read because their posts are literate and technically well informed.

It's hard to accurately judge the age of a person from his posts on internet chat boards. Some very knowledgable people are quite young. More than a few comparative newbies are actually grey-haired types (like myself), rather than youthful enthusiasts. To me, anybody under forty is a mere child.

There is no connection between possessing detailed knowledge of some hobby and knowing how to behave in polite conversation. Some persons with limited social skills are drawn to the internet, where they are not judged by their physical appearance or mannerisms. It's a place where they can interact as presumptive equals, if they can type and use a spell checker.

Since we do not all sit at a big table, nobody can kick us in the shins when we act thoughtlessly. We need to police our own conduct, and give respect where we wish to receive it.
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Gary Grzybek




Location: Stillwater N.J.
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 559

PostPosted: Tue 25 May, 2004 4:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good post Tim...

I've noticed this type of activity all along and it seems to be concentrated on two other forums that I know of. One of which I have seriously decreased my activity on. It seems that if you disagree with them then you are black listed, banned or plain ignored. There seems to be a lot of imature and inexperienced people who have no buisness giving others advise or just picking on the newbies who only need to be educated. Don't get me wrong, there are some really great, friendly and intellegent people over there but the other undesireables leave a very bad taste.

It seems that myArmoury.com is taking the high road by avoiding the silly childs play.

Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,439

PostPosted: Tue 25 May, 2004 9:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Old guard in any of these places is a very relative term.

Perhaps better to say the new old guard.

Most of what I consider the old guard, the people I learned from at the other popular destination when I was new there, are no longer there. Many were long ago banned, others lost interest, others just faded away. Most of the old guard that remains posts there infrequently. BUT there is always somebody new trying to make everyone think they are the resident expert on something.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Timothy Gulics




Location: NJ, US
Joined: 28 Jan 2004

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Posts: 335

PostPosted: Tue 25 May, 2004 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for your comments. Happy

Joe, you might be right about that. I guess I was looking at it as the new old guard replacing the true old guard, thus becoming the only old guard around. Wink

Either way, it comes down to a fairly seasoned individual (either in age or simply time on the boards) or a person who tries to -appear- seasoned and knowledgeable setting a bad example for the "green" folks who look up to them. It's a shame.

The sword is my companion.
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William Goodwin




Location: Roanoke,Va
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PostPosted: Tue 25 May, 2004 10:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All of these excellent points are part of the reason myArmoury is such a treasure.

My hat off to Nathan & all the staff that work so hard to make it the quality place it is.



William
aka Bill
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Jeremy V. Krause




Location: Buffalo, NY.
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PostPosted: Tue 25 May, 2004 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I second that! myArmoury.com provides a venue for thoughtful and fruitful discussion regarding our fine hobby. If one want to discuss such fine topics as, "swords made of diamond." or "the knight versus the samurai," then look elsewhere. Wink
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Joel Whitmore




Location: Simmesport, LA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 342

PostPosted: Tue 25 May, 2004 5:11 pm    Post subject: I understand what you mean Tim.         Reply with quote

Those of us who were at the "other forum" from it's near beginning have seen it happen. It would seem that with a sudden growth in size comes the socially inept and emotionally immature people. It also seems to follow that those said people always seem to THINK they know more than they do and really satisfy thier inadequacies by downing other people, no matter what their age. Thus far this forum hasn't gone down that road. I think this is mainly due to good forum administration and said administration not putting this forum for self promotion or advancement of a career. I hope this forum continues in this manner and it's a real tribute to Nathan's character and hard work. So hang in there Tim and the incidents you mentioned on the "other forum" are exactly the reasons I left there and have never returned; and I was one of the "old guard". This is a nice, safe, warm place and with God's grace and Nathan's administration, it'll stay this way.

Joel
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,439

PostPosted: Tue 25 May, 2004 7:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was not around any of these places from the beginning. Still I find that I've been around long enough that most of the odd hot threads don't interest me. At one time I read almost everything and commented to a fair portion of what I looked at.

Now I skim topics quick and only read what seems interesting.

Then I only comment if it really is.

I expect my behavior is not unique.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Alex McCracken




Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 03 Sep 2003

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Wed 26 May, 2004 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Timothy,

What Joe said is true. Most of the people that I would go out
of my way to read at SFI have been banned. The only forum
I regularly go to there is the Scottish forum, and I'm depressed
to say even that one has suffered (though it does better than
most there). You do have to bear in mind that for a lot of the
"old timers", answering the same questions kind of wears
them out after a while, and they stop doing it. I guess everything
has a life cycle, sword forums not the least. Don't let it get you
down. Take what you can learn and move on, and pass on.

Alex

Pray, n:. To ask that the laws of the universe be
annulled in behalf of a single petitioner
confessedly unworthy.

Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
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Shawn Duncanson




Location: Spokane Wa
Joined: 05 Dec 2003

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2004 12:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How to prevent such things...It seems it is sort of the inevitable result as a community grows in popularity. You get the blow hards looking for an ego boost and the fan boys, yet their is not much to do about it unless you find a way to discourage these people from posting. But this gives rise to another problem, where is the line between some one who has been misinformed and an inccorigable blow hard? It is almost impossible to tell in the beginning and I dont see how to really correct this problem without just banning tons of peopole.
Not all who wander are lost.
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Shawn Duncanson




Location: Spokane Wa
Joined: 05 Dec 2003

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2004 12:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another thought

Funny enough this idea reminds me of the monastaries set up in responce to the corruption of "the world" in the in the 6 and 7th centuries, and later on St. Benedicts rule instituted to reform those monastaries and they became more successful they were corrupted. It seems any organization has a lifespan that it remains true to its original cause. Once the org grows it will inevitalby change and then split once again as those with the original cause in mind are dissatisfied. On and on she goes...

Not all who wander are lost.
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Steve Fabert





Joined: 03 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2004 3:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shawn Duncanson wrote:
Once the org grows it will inevitalby change and then split once again as those with the original cause in mind are dissatisfied. On and on she goes...


Even if there is no reason to squabble, human beings have an irresistible tendency to choose up sides and bicker. Once you have enough people on hand to form two teams, odds are good that someone will want to engage in a sporting contest, or form a political party. Sometimes social harmony is unnatural, or at least uninspiring, so a dispute arises out of nothing just due to boredom. Even the desire to form clubs and exclude others is just another example of the general desire to see the world as 'us' versus 'them'. The only way to avoid this that I can see is to leave people out of the mix entirely, and associate only with animals and aliens.
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Arik Estus





Joined: 07 Dec 2003

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat 29 May, 2004 7:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If more then one person knows a secret, it isnt a secret.
If more then one person is on the committee, its to many.
Remember,a camel was a horse designed by a committee.
Everyone has an opinion. Some read, study and ask questions.
The then form an opinion. Some watch movies or anime and
form an opinion. The same old GIGO is tiresome. JSA verus WMA, etc.

I think of myself as an ongoing project. The perenial student.
I never want to stop learning. Trying to sort out fact from fiction.
But I do get tired of hearing/reading the same old BS about whitch is better.
Everyone knows the Scottish Baskethilt is the finest sword around. Cool

Its not always easy to sort the wheat from the chaff. I enjoy the wheat.
The chaff irritates. It doesnt matter if its from an old or new member.

Happy

Arik
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Sat 29 May, 2004 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
But I do get tired of hearing/reading the same old BS about whitch is better.
Everyone knows the Scottish Baskethilt is the finest sword around. Cool Happy


I like the way you think, laddie .... I'll be watching you ;-) Mac

'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
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Timothy Gulics




Location: NJ, US
Joined: 28 Jan 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 29 May, 2004 2:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, yes, the Scottish Baskethilt is the best, and we all know the knight would tromp the samurai. Wink

Thanks guys. I'm glad that you agree with me, and even if there were those who did not agree, the replies in this thread prove that we are amongst a fine folk who can discuss these things civilly. Good on ya!

Big Grin

The sword is my companion.
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Angus Trim




Location: Seattle area
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PostPosted: Sat 29 May, 2004 7:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Timothy Gulics wrote:
Yes, yes, the Scottish Baskethilt is the best, and we all know the knight would tromp the samurai. Wink

Thanks guys. I'm glad that you agree with me, and even if there were those who did not agree, the replies in this thread prove that we are amongst a fine folk who can discuss these things civilly. Good on ya!

Big Grin


Actually, teastrainers for weinies that like to run around in skirts and bobby sox.....*g*

Auld Dawg

swords are fun
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Lee O'Hagan




Location: Northamptonshire,England
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Sun 30 May, 2004 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Debatable Arik,
a good choice but each to their own, Laughing Out Loud
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Sun 30 May, 2004 5:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually, teastrainers for weinies that like to run around in skirts and bobby sox.....*g* Auld Dawg


"Would'cha like to ssstep outssside and ssay that again, laddie"


'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
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